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 Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Marble Hornets
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lonsumtravlr
Entrenched

Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 1009
Location: The Great Continent of New England
Bulb wrote:
If Lithp's opinion (or the way he expresses it) is so obnoxious, then I recommend you speak to one another instead. From the few posts of his that I've read, he seems respectful of other people's opinions. If he happens to challenge yours, (which any poster is entitled to do,) you should know better than to call him a "dick" or suggest he isn't smart enough to follow the series.


Have to agree here. I don't see anything "dickish." Adversarial maybe, but why not be if you have a strong opinion and want to stimulate discussion and debate.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:12 pm
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420Goku
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Joined: 19 Sep 2013
Posts: 109
Bulb wrote:
or suggest he isn't smart enough to follow the series


it's not about intelligence, it just means he never really did follow it. which he admitted. This isn't the first time you've completely misrepresented me, I don't think. You fucks are basically waiting in the shadows at any minute to pick on someone and give your peanut gallery opinions and it's even more annoying than lithp's weird criticisms.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:22 pm
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DHawk314
Entrenched


Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 1087

 		I just think the way he talks about the series leaves no room for people who did enjoy it to come out of the discussion with their dignity intact. He really thinks people who liked it have an objectively worse opinion than his. I have never heard him say "I didn't like what the series did but I understand why some people enjoyed what they did with it." You have to be blind if you don't think there's some kind of implication that he thinks people who enjoyed it are somehow dumber than he is, or that liking it is an inherently less intelligent, and objectively wrong interpretation. Seriously, I've never seen him admit his not liking it had anything to do with his personal opinion, he is really insistent that the exact opposite is true. How, if you enjoyed it, are you supposed to feel about that exactly? The idea that that shouldn't offend me is absurd.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:45 am
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Viden
Boot


Joined: 07 Mar 2014
Posts: 22

 		I've disagreed with Lithp plenty of times but he's always been respectful of other people's opinions, and he isn't afraid to admit when he is mistaken or if he missed something. He just disagrees with you, he's not saying "you're wrong and you should feel bad for being so wrong."

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:52 am
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SilentMedusa
Entrenched

Joined: 04 Jul 2013
Posts: 904

 		Yeah. If anything, it looks to me like this:

Lithp: I didn't really like this entry, and here are my reasons why.

Unfiction Member: Your reasons are wrong, and you're wrong for having them!!1!

Rolling Eyes

I've never seen him say people were wrong or stupid for liking something, but I've seen plenty of people say that to him for disagreeing.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:16 am
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MascaraSnake
Boot

Joined: 12 Oct 2011
Posts: 22

 		Lithp attributes the things he dislikes about the series to the supposed incompetence or laziness of the creators, even though most of them are deliberate decisions. That in turn implies that the only way to enjoy the series is by ignoring its "obvious" flaws. It's hardly surprising that people feel offended by this.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:38 am
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Bulb
Boot


Joined: 24 Jun 2014
Posts: 22
Location: Bedside Lamp
DHawk314 wrote:
You have to be blind if you don't think there's some kind of implication that he thinks people who enjoyed it are somehow dumber than he is, or that liking it is an inherently less intelligent, and objectively wrong interpretation. Seriously, I've never seen him admit his not liking it had anything to do with his personal opinion, he is really insistent that the exact opposite is true.


"some kind of implication" is enough to become angry? I remember there was a member called Pravado on here, and whilst he was sometimes rude, people usually jumped down his throat primarily because he didn't enjoy something about the series. If you ask me, certain people on here need to learn to step back and say, "Ah, whatever." Which is how I'm able to turn the other cheek when 420Goku replies predictably to me with "fucking fucks."

With that said, I actually do understand your frustration, because I used to be in a similar boat. (Unrelated to Marble Hornets.) I recommend that you let it go, as I did. The best you can do is offer your opinion to him, and if you believe he is disregarding it, end the conversation there.

Oh, and in regards to your avatar, Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door was an excellent title. The Glitz Pit arc was boss.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:16 am
Last edited by Bulb on Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058
lonsumtravlr wrote:
Bulb wrote:
If Lithp's opinion (or the way he expresses it) is so obnoxious, then I recommend you speak to one another instead. From the few posts of his that I've read, he seems respectful of other people's opinions. If he happens to challenge yours, (which any poster is entitled to do,) you should know better than to call him a "dick" or suggest he isn't smart enough to follow the series.


Have to agree here. I don't see anything "dickish." Adversarial maybe, but why not be if you have a strong opinion and want to stimulate discussion and debate.


I'm not accused of that very often. Maybe my attempts at being less confrontational are actually working.

Quote:

it's that your viewpoint on my opinion seems to be that it somehow means I'm stupider than you, or that I don't understand stories as well as you


I said that exactly once & it was a thinly veiled jab at you going, "Nobody would notice these things unless they were looking for things to complain about, agree to disagree."

Quote:
The writing style of Marble Hornets was never conventional,


What is even so unconventional about it?

Quote:
Seriously, I've never seen him admit his not liking it had anything to do with his personal opinion, he is really insistent that the exact opposite is true.


I base my opinions on objective reasoning as much as possible & don't try to argue them wherever I can't. I also make a clear distinction between entertainment & quality. For example, I think Cowboy Bebop is boring, but the technical aspects; the writing, characters, art, & animation are solid. The plot is kind of simple, but it doesn't overstay its welcome, so it holds up to the hype pretty well overall. But still, there are only a few episodes that I will bother to catch when they're on.

Quote:
Lithp attributes the things he dislikes about the series to the supposed incompetence or laziness of the creators, even though most of them are deliberate decisions. That in turn implies that the only way to enjoy the series is by ignoring its "obvious" flaws. It's hardly surprising that people feel offended by this.


This doesn't make sense. How is "deliberate decisions" mutually exclusive with incompetence or laziness?

As to "ignoring the flaws," people are flat-out telling me that's what they're doing, saying that most things are "unimportant," "not the point," or "they weren't expecting answers for." These "unimportant details" apparently include:

>Not fleshing out Totheark's backstory
>Just plain dropping plot points, like Masked Jay.
>Building up mysteries that have really mundane solutions, like "The Ark."
>Unexplained character/plot device inconsistencies, largely with the Operator/Sickness/Masked States doing whatever is convenient at the time. Simple question, why does The Operator ignore Jay unless he goes into Rosswood? Troy would seem to suggest that it's just randomness.
>Very simple narrative stretched over too long of a period. There were some plot twists in the beginning, but much of Season 3 is just "Alex kills people, we have to evade/stop him."
>Just plain not bothering to explain most of their plot twists, such as Jessica's survival or Alex telling Tim & Jay to leave.
>Half-hearted attempts at what few answers they give, which often still include enough contradictions to have some people arguing that they weren't even supposed to be the actual answers.

So all of that doesn't matter because the characters are allegedly well written & "that's the important part"? A whole plot can be held up by that alone? And in reverse, if it was the characters that we knew nothing about, but the rest of the plot was solid, could I say all of that "doesn't matter" & the series sucks?

Come on, this logic doesn't make any sense, & it doesn't make sense to be offended that I'm not pretending it does.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:32 am
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Geneaux486
I Have No Life


Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 2423

 		After reading through the whole thing, looks like all the important questions have now been answered.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:45 am
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The Spirit of Christmas
Boot


Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Posts: 21
Lithp wrote:
A Skully Jay Arc could tie together many of the hanging plot threads, if done right.


But including such a subplot would only have worsened the convolution of the plot which you've referred to. Season 2's chronology takes enough concentration to follow as is - adding another series of tapes from an earlier time period would surely just make it worse.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:22 am
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420Goku
Veteran

Joined: 19 Sep 2013
Posts: 109
Bulb wrote:
Which is how I'm able to turn the other cheek when 420Goku replies predictably to me with "fucking fucks."


There he goes again! Like seriously dude, you have never once said anything about what I've actually said. I don't think you even actually read my posts.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:49 am
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058
The Spirit of Christmas wrote:
Lithp wrote:
A Skully Jay Arc could tie together many of the hanging plot threads, if done right.


But including such a subplot would only have worsened the convolution of the plot which you've referred to. Season 2's chronology takes enough concentration to follow as is - adding another series of tapes from an earlier time period would surely just make it worse.


I would probably put it in Season 3.

S1: Introduce Totheark & Masky.

S2: Reveal that Masky=Tim & that he acted with at least 1 accomplice--Hoody.

S3: Discover Tim's past, unmask Brian, leads to the backstory of Totheark, which includes Skully.

So this way you're building on this Totheark story each season & it all ties together at the end. It seems like a lot to happen in Season 3, but they said that they wanted to cut material in Season 2 & a lot of people say that Season 3 didn't have much going on either, so I think this works out.

The chronology wouldn't be too much of a problem, because Jay would have only been Skully for later parts of Season 1 & early parts of the time gap. Also, another change that I would have made is to have Jay or Tim start putting the Entries in proper order in late Season 3.

This would clear up the continuity while leaving plenty of time for people who want to solve it themselves, & allowing them to check it in the end.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:56 pm
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DHawk314
Entrenched


Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 1087
Lithp wrote:

Quote:

it's that your viewpoint on my opinion seems to be that it somehow means I'm stupider than you, or that I don't understand stories as well as you


I said that exactly once & it was a thinly veiled jab at you going, "Nobody would notice these things unless they were looking for things to complain about, agree to disagree."

Quote:
The writing style of Marble Hornets was never conventional,


What is even so unconventional about it?

Quote:
Seriously, I've never seen him admit his not liking it had anything to do with his personal opinion, he is really insistent that the exact opposite is true.


I base my opinions on objective reasoning as much as possible & don't try to argue them wherever I can't. I also make a clear distinction between entertainment & quality. For example, I think Cowboy Bebop is boring, but the technical aspects; the writing, characters, art, & animation are solid. The plot is kind of simple, but it doesn't overstay its welcome, so it holds up to the hype pretty well overall. But still, there are only a few episodes that I will bother to catch when they're on.

Quote:
Lithp attributes the things he dislikes about the series to the supposed incompetence or laziness of the creators, even though most of them are deliberate decisions. That in turn implies that the only way to enjoy the series is by ignoring its "obvious" flaws. It's hardly surprising that people feel offended by this.


This doesn't make sense. How is "deliberate decisions" mutually exclusive with incompetence or laziness?

As to "ignoring the flaws," people are flat-out telling me that's what they're doing, saying that most things are "unimportant," "not the point," or "they weren't expecting answers for." These "unimportant details" apparently include:

>Not fleshing out Totheark's backstory
>Just plain dropping plot points, like Masked Jay.
>Building up mysteries that have really mundane solutions, like "The Ark."
>Unexplained character/plot device inconsistencies, largely with the Operator/Sickness/Masked States doing whatever is convenient at the time. Simple question, why does The Operator ignore Jay unless he goes into Rosswood? Troy would seem to suggest that it's just randomness.
>Very simple narrative stretched over too long of a period. There were some plot twists in the beginning, but much of Season 3 is just "Alex kills people, we have to evade/stop him."
>Just plain not bothering to explain most of their plot twists, such as Jessica's survival or Alex telling Tim & Jay to leave.
>Half-hearted attempts at what few answers they give, which often still include enough contradictions to have some people arguing that they weren't even supposed to be the actual answers.

So all of that doesn't matter because the characters are allegedly well written & "that's the important part"? A whole plot can be held up by that alone? And in reverse, if it was the characters that we knew nothing about, but the rest of the plot was solid, could I say all of that "doesn't matter" & the series sucks?

Come on, this logic doesn't make any sense, & it doesn't make sense to be offended that I'm not pretending it does.


It's unconventional because it has story elements that are implicit in the writing or images which is unusual for a story. That's probably a lot of where we differ, you seem to think having story elements that you need to pay attention to figure out is somehow lazy. The point I'm trying to make is that Marble Hornets has virtually always been like that, and I've always liked that about it. It makes it so that everything sort of develops in your head one piece at a time until you get a logical picture. It leaves certain pieces of it up to interpretation, but not pieces that are integral to understanding the story, which adds to the atmosphere without really making plot holes.

Which is another difference in opinion, every time someone points out that the mystery atmosphere you act like that's some cop-out excuse for the writers to be lazy. I don't think it's laziness, because you're correct, it would have been really easy for them to spell out all of the minor points, the reason they didn't do it is because they thought it would be better the other way. If you think that was the wrong choice, then there's nothing wrong with that opinion, but you act like it's some glaring flaw in the writing, and the fact that other people don't see it shows they don't understand how stories should be, which by the way, you have totally said more than one time, but let's not even get into that.

Even what you just said in this post. I am not "ignoring" all of those minor plot points being left ambiguous because I don't think they're important, I think leaving things ambiguous is part of what makes Marble Hornets good. So I think if something is really unimportant, it's okay to leave it off. I think everything that was important was answered, so I point out that it wasn't super important, because I don't really think it was at the detriment to the story overall, and I think it improved the quality of the atmosphere, as opposed to the alternative.

You obviously don't like things being left ambiguous, but to me, the atmosphere that created was part of what drew me in. I don't understand how someone can say "I liked Marble Hornets, until the ending, because that part was too mysterious." Unless you just thought the mystery aspect would be filled in with a lot of answers by the end, but I didn't. But it's fine for you to feel that way about the series. But, when you say things like, I must be "ignoring" things to like the series or that I don't understand the difference between entertainment and quality if I think Marble Hornets was high quality, it is rude to those who differ from you on that. I didn't ignore those plot points, I literally think it's a positive thing that every minor detail wasn't focused on. I don't have to be someone who just "ignores" things or "thinks entertainment=quality" to like it. And how is implying those things about people who did like not offensive?
_________________
I was just lurking around the forums and i have no idea who MH is

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:53 pm
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058
Quote:
It's unconventional because it has story elements that are implicit in the writing or images which is unusual for a story


Taken literally, you just described literally every story ever. Assuming that you're trying to reference the ambiguity again, that's not unusual, it's cliche.

Quote:
That's probably a lot of where we differ, you seem to think having story elements that you need to pay attention to figure out is somehow lazy.


Not necessarily. It can be pulled off if there's enough depth. But you need a strong surface level plot which hints at your deeper plot first. Marble Hornets had an okay surface level plot that it tried to make seem deep & complicated by not explaining shit about it. As mentioned previously, this is cliche. And while I said that it would be easy to explain the plot, this is even easier. What's harder than both is to actually fill the plot in while still keeping it mysterious.

Quote:
Even what you just said in this post. I am not "ignoring" all of those minor plot points being left ambiguous because I don't think they're important, I think leaving things ambiguous is part of what makes Marble Hornets good.


What do you think "ignore" means? "To disregard intentionally," "To reject as ungrounded."

Quote:
So I think if something is really unimportant, it's okay to leave it off. I think everything that was important was answered, so I point out that it wasn't super important, because I don't really think it was at the detriment to the story overall, and I think it improved the quality of the atmosphere, as opposed to the alternative.


I asked you this question before & you evaded it: Do you think that back story is unimportant? Do you think that Brian becoming Hoody, Totheark finding Jay, & Tim saving Jessica & breaking off from Totheark are all "unimportant details"? That these weren't all turning points that influenced the plot in major way? Unless you can tell me that these legitimately aren't important, then no matter how pissed you get, your argument doesn't hold water.

Quote:
I don't understand how someone can say "I liked Marble Hornets, until the ending, because that part was too mysterious." Unless you just thought the mystery aspect would be filled in with a lot of answers by the end, but I didn't.


For starters, I never said that. Secondly, yes, they told fans that they were going to "answer the major questions," "not be a cliche horror series," "not do a cop out ending that explains nothing," etc. With that in mind, there's a lot worse that I could say than "not answering shit is cheap, not deep," which is kind of what I've always said.

In conclusion, I don't doubt that you find these points offensive, but that doesn't mean that the logic is unsound.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:08 pm
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420Goku
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Joined: 19 Sep 2013
Posts: 109
Lithp wrote:
Marble Hornets had an okay surface level plot that it tried to make seem deep & complicated by not explaining shit about it.


seriously dude this isn't a dostoevsky novel this is a horror web series it's just supposed to be spoopy what is wrong with you whhat did you guys think would happen in this series

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:19 pm
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