unforum

[TridenT]

Man, and here I thought Xbox Live was a place where online gaming could be had without the snags of ruthless cheaters. This is why I never play PC games with any kind of competitive nature online. City of Heroes for me, thank you very much.. because I know it's only a matter of time before someone hacks World of Warcraft, and then the Player vs Player servers will all spiral to hell.

Same goes for first person shooters, but apparently now not even my Halo 2 is safe.

[thebruce]

[Clayfoot]

Pulling through the floor = cheating?

[ROBOGriff]

Re: Pulling through the floor = cheating?

[Anton P. Nym]

Re: Pulling through the floor = cheating?

[thebruce]

[Anton P. Nym]

I'm going to get away from discussing "cheat vs. exploit" and I'm going to work on the angle of "fair vs. unfair".

If a player can (i) be expected to forsee the possibility of an action and (ii)take measures to counter that action, then the action is "fair."

Otherwise, it's "unfair."

Pulling the flag through the floor or wall certainly violates clause (i); until it was done, the inability to move or shoot through the wall or floor led players to understand that the wall/floor was impassable. That it suddenly became permeable to the flag (and ONLY the flag) was unexpected. Therefor I judge it to be "unfair". (However, should this exploit become widely spread and expected, it could cross back over into "fair" territory... but since Bungie is planning to remove it, I'll keep it in "unfair" as it probably won't last long enough to permeate the entire gaming community.)

Spawn camping violates clause (ii); players cannot defend themselves from spawn camping, as there is insufficient time for their defensive actions to take place before they die. Therefor it is "unfair." (This was the number one reason I was dissatisfied with HaloPC online play; spawn camping was too prevalent and there was nothing I could do about it other than quit after the first few incidences. The new spawning routine is annoying sometimes, but it greatly complicates spawn camping and is the lesser of two evils.)

Modem standby violates both clauses, and is doubly unfair.

Camping in general can be predicted, and can be countered by keeping a sharp eye out for telltale glimpses of armour colour or listening to shot directions (thanks, Marty!). It may not be the most fun way to play, but as it violates neither clause I judge it to be "fair".

-- Steve thinks that this is probably the more fruitful line of investigation, as it keeps the focus on gameplay instead of trying to define abstract concepts.

[ROBOGriff]

Anton P. Nym, thanks for reading my mind and typing out what I don't have the articulation and time to place into the written word.

My only concern is how fast Bungie can address these "features". If they are primarily concerned about pushing the next wave of maps out, then they may not address the core geometry code (which is a BIG deal) before the problem becomes widespread. If the problem grows (like the reset cheat is doing), it will ruin the game for the people who play fair and for fun.

[Clayfoot]

Spawn-camping is fair. If you wish, you can devote a team member to patrolling your spawn area for would-be assassins. Your spawn area will be safe, but your attacking team is short a member. Of course, the defenders are also short a member. Once again, it's a feature that's equally available to all players, and you have the opportunity to compensate for it.

Likewise, flag-floor-pulling is fair. Think of it like a teleporter: Who knew how that worked before seeing it? Once you know that the flag carrier can jump through your teleporter, you guard the teleporter exit. Once you know that the flag can be pulled through the floor, you assume that someone may try it, and you cover the area where it could occur.

[Anton P. Nym]

[thebruce]

and thus we debate over fairness of gameplay... the disagreement over the previous points 2 and 3... game mechanics, and bugs.
Fair because they are accessible and defendable to everyone equally.
Unfair because they require experience and knowledge in order to use or defend.

So it depends on where your definition of fair/unfair lies. If you consider it unfair that some know and some don't, but can, then in essence, any aspect of skillful gameplay can be considered unfair. If I know how to get on top a building and someone doesn't, is it unfair just because they haven't yet figured it out? <shrug> it's a rule that ideally you should be able to set before playing - what's fair and unfair. In which case, fairness becomes a matter of the lowest common denominator.

Thus why Bungie implemented the ranking system, so that the chances of people claiming to have 'unfair' games is drastically reduced, because they're always playing against similar skilled opponents, or groups of similar average skill.

Fair vs unfair is entirely subjective. I don't think this thread will ever decide whether spawn camping or flag pulling, for examples, are fair or unfair.

- thebruce needs to work now.

[Foz]

[fugitivesoldier]

From Bungie.net:

[Clayfoot]

[Clayfoot]