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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » Old News & Rumors
Dave's new book
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SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar
C_Brennan wrote:
When I posted the second time in character, as a mocking Rowen Darkblade who was laughing at the players as the time to the firing of the Nightmare Cannon slowly ticked down, Mr. SpaceBass quickly deleted my single mocking post on UF's Project Gateway board and banned my account the second time. Once again, he is right with what he did. I, at the time, did not understand that characters couldn't participate ANYWHERE on UF.


That's a bit disingenuous isn't it? I mean you did PM me to ask if you could do that for your endgame after the first time you were banned for posting in character, which I appreciated, but I told you no and then you went ahead and did it anyway, which I didn't really appreciate at all.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:56 am
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia

 		*sigh* Hope my two cents doesn't get lost in all this pocket change.

Alzheimers wrote:
What I read in that interview sounded like Dave declaring that he's the greatest thing to Grassroots gaming since the invention of the keyboard, but oh by the way these games trying to get by on the cheap aren't worthy of existence.


Wow. So, even after Dave explained himself two days ago you still insist on going back to the interview for your own analysis? I believe the man has made very clear what the intent of his statement was, and it had nothing to do with the very empty claims you insist on making.

Alzheimers wrote:
Even worse is the public flogging of anonymous PMs who dared to not meet your standards. You have every right not to agree with their style. You have every right not to play the game. But to use your position in the community to announce your own opinions as fact ("This game is hosted on Tripod -- I decree it CRAP IN A BUCKET!") without knowing a thing about it is wrong. It does a diservice to every one who ever spent a month of late nights trying to put together something for the community that wouldn't become a financial risk.


Alright, i dunno who you are pointing these comments at specifically, but here's the thing -- I can't think of a situation where anyone with any sort of 'position in this community*' would be ready to offer a baseless, devoid-of-fact opinion, as you suggest. In general, I believe most sound-minded people who happen to cruise through this part of the gaming world have been more than kind in their treatment of any ARG -- and any constructive criticism they might have had about a game is their own opinion. And if that criticism revolves around the realism of the game, then so be it. No one in this thread has come close to saying that if a game is not hooked into a paid-in-full domain, then it is crap. However, what is being said is that if the hosting choice breaks the game's 'reality', then the game might just be crap.

*(and I really don't know what sorts of positions there are to be had, but I would like the title of Prime Minister of Sarcasm and Crazed Indifference)

Alzheimers wrote:
Or, should the ARG community start charging for "PM Licenses" to separate half-hearted efforts from the true hopefuls?


If the effort is half-hearted, then game deserves whatever criticism it receives. Dave said it very well:

cabal wrote:
Believe me, although it may have been an accomlishment (sic) to actually complete a game launched under [conditions of minimal preparation], don't fool yourslef (sic) into thinking it wasn't noticeable and didn't impact your game negatively.


A lot of people feel this way, and it has nothing to do with grassroots campaigns. It has everything to do with the quality of the game, and how it suffers because of poor decision-making by the PM team.

I won't go on to comment on the remainder of your assumption-laden post, other than to say it was in poor form. Maybe you just haven't done your homework on Dave Szulborski, one of the leading advocates for this genre. And maybe you didn't take the time to take a look at where these forums have been, and where they are now. Of course, that might just be because you put in the minimum of effort in preparing your rant, rife with transparent claims against people who have done everything in their power to help this community thrive and grow.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:58 am
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C_Brennan
Guest


 		With all due respect Mr. SpaceBass, I apologize. I just really didn't want to leave UF behind IU. And it was one harmless post. Or, well, I considered it harmless. Maybe I shouldn't have. My mistake, and I apologize. And I did apologize after the incident in question... so this becomes my 67th apology and you still haven't forgiven me. Which is your own opinion, of course... and you are entitled, of course. Sorry...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:12 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		yay a book
We actually have our own book about the genre? How cool is that? I am so pleased that Dave and Steve and whoever else took the time and effort to create this. I've had trouble just putting together some very basic ideas about the community to share even in an abbreviated article. So I do appreciate all the effort that went into writing and publishing it.

I am sure this will help fill in the gaps in terms of educating people about ARGs. Maybe now the wiki guide for a game can just refer to the book instead of recreating the wheel every time we need to discuss what an ARG is.

I am going to be organizing some specific event for ARGfest-o-con (at least the con part) with Dave (and others), who has generously agreed to participate with whatever we finally pull together. Details to follow.

Thanks again.
---
PS. I think that the question of characters posting here has been thoroughly discussed and the community very strongly and vocally opposed it. I think that is part of the genesis for the creation of IU where characters and PMs can post to their hearts delight. SpaceBass is just enforcing what the players want. But really, it is more than that, anyone who violates the TOS really loses the trust of the players here - its that simple.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:49 am
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GabrielBlade
Decorated

Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 202

 		As a relatively "new" player in the ARG genre, (I only joined Uf part of the way through ILB, but was hooked rather completely), I have opinions that really swing both ways, and I have to agree with some of what both Dave and Colin are saying. On the one hand, having a top level website, (like ilovebees.com) adds to the reality, but there are cases where, as Colin mentioned, it's more appropriate that the site be on a geocities or tripod like account - again, the person who brought up Dana's blog made a good point, that it fit in with the nature of the character owning it and the structure of the game around it. (we'll ignore some of the people posting comments on said blog..) Also, keep in mind the fact that some people really can't afford a top level domain. I know that for example, right now, I couldn't, because then I'd be struggling to find my next meal. (Well, having said that, I'm not exactly looking to run a complicated ARG right at this point in time, but the comment stands. Not everybody has the exact same means, but they will almost always have the same commitment to making a good, fun experience...)


My problem is that people seem very keen to criticise Dave for his opinions which, while they might have seemed harsh initially, are, well, his opinions. He's entitled to his opinions, and you're entitled to disagree, but there's very little point in being openly hostile about it. Civility on both sides tends to make things a lot cooler..


One of the (many) things I love about the Unfiction Forums is that (most) of the people here are sensible, mature, and able to conduct themselves in a manner which is sadly lacking quite frequently in todays world. It's a part of the reason I feel part of this community, its why I gladly consider many of the people here friends, and I think it would a good thing if healthy, constructive criticism can be given, and it should be appreciated as such.


On the other hand, comments like those by SpaceBass (take you up on the million dollar bucket of crap, SB? Razz ) and jamesi (I want Minister of Offence!), are welcome light relief that make browsing this place all the more enjoyable. Smile "Welcome to Unforums, bring your sense of kindred, but leave your egos and issues at the door" ? *shrug*
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:57 am
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colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia
GabrielBlade wrote:
My problem is that people seem very keen to criticise Dave for his opinions which, while they might have seemed harsh initially, are, well, his opinions. He's entitled to his opinions, and you're entitled to disagree, but there's very little point in being openly hostile about it. Civility on both sides tends to make things a lot cooler..


When you make your opinions public, you open them up to debate. Surprisingly (not) this leads to criticism, as well as support. I agree about the civility, but I don't think anyone's over stepped the mark. Especially when taken in context of a title like 'Prime Minister of Sarcasm and Crazed Indifference'

To respond to the post in contention (and make this kind of on-topic)
Alzheimers wrote:
While I guess he's right, it's pretty shocking to see it emphasised so boldly.
I agree.

However, given the context, I think it was acceptable. In that section of the interview he said:
...hopefully will be taken constructively and not as criticism of any one game
While I appreciate the problem of actually financing an independent game ...
Again, I understand and appreciate the enthusiasm of novice game makers....

Hojo then asks: "Any other tips for future PMs out there wanting to start their own ARG?" and Dave goes onto give some, and the length of response to that question is about the same as to the previous (constructive) criticisms he gave. I think that was a pretty balanced response.

But now I'm just rehashing what dave has already posted in response to what Alzheimers wrote

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:17 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
C_Brennan wrote:
With all due respect Mr. SpaceBass, I apologize. I just really didn't want to leave UF behind IU. And it was one harmless post. Or, well, I considered it harmless. Maybe I shouldn't have. My mistake, and I apologize. And I did apologize after the incident in question... so this becomes my 67th apology and you still haven't forgiven me. Which is your own opinion, of course... and you are entitled, of course. Sorry...



*snicker*

UF and IU have different rules for members. That does not mean one is leaving the other behind. IU allows character interaction on its board, therefore making it an in game site - i.e. anything a player says there is up for reading by the characters. UF's purpose is to give players a space outside of that Reality where they can discuss in depth without worrying that Character X will see post Y and go ballistic because you called him a psycopath (yes, I know I can't spell).

IU has a place and so does UF. They accomplish different goals.

/me wishes people would stop comparing different Game discussion sites like it was a competition with a gold medal for pissing into the wind.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:31 am
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bill
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 614
Location: Tampa

 		I posted a follow up email interview with Dave to deaddrop and he further clarified his position on the grassroots puppetmastering issue.

You can read it here.

Personally, I think if you can't swing $8 for a domain, you might want to reconsider how you spend your free time. If you truly can't afford it, there are other options. One registrar was giving away .info domains for about 4 months. I don't know where the thread is now, but it was posted on UF and reported at Deaddrop.

Further, Deaddrop offers free hosting to grassroots PMs. It's there for the asking. I've also offered recycled domains from an inventory of domains I've collected. I'm sure others could offer similar if you but asked.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:52 pm
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Alzheimers
Unfettered

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 339

 		*edit*

Thank you for the follow up interview.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:01 pm
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