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[Halo 2] ILB players get together on LIVE
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Dasro_Kast
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Joined: 26 Oct 2004
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 		Hey everybody. Just want to apologize for being an irritable teammate for most of the games last night, especially DreamoftheRood, ariock, atdt, and manowar. I was having a really awful day, and I think I ended up taking it out on you guys, when I was really just frustrated at myself. I'm sorry.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:32 am
Last edited by Dasro_Kast on Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dasro_Kast
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Joined: 26 Oct 2004
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Location: Raleigh, NC
Anonymous wrote:
The problem with tweaking Zombies is the 'win' conditions. If you're the last human left alive (under any circumstances), you win. You get only small benefits by saving other humans or by killing zombies. You actually need to get your teammates killed to win. I won once just by hiding behind some boxes until all of the other humans were dead. What we need in Zombies is some reward for humans that stick together, and some way for the humans to defeat the zombies entirely.

We could play Zombies as rounds of multi-bomb assault. The zombies don't try to plant a bomb. Instead, they try to convert the humans. The humans work together to plant the bomb, and wipe out all of the zombies. Every time a human changes to a zombie, the human stays a zombie in the next round. Humans win by winning enough rounds to "wipe out" all of the zombies. Zombies win by converting all humans. The humans have an incentive to work together and maintain numerical strength. The last surving human doesn't win by hiding alone, because the zombies aren't wiped out. The starting lone zombie for a new match would be the person who had the most kills on either side in the last match.


That sounds like an interesting variation, mystery guest. At the very least, it would be something different than the "Let's get the vehicles and camp on the beach" variation that we've been playing, which, while fun, is kindof annoying if you're not in a warthog, or are the first zombie.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:38 am
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ROBOGriff
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Anonymous wrote:
The problem with tweaking Zombies is the 'win' conditions. If you're the last human left alive (under any circumstances), you win. You get only small benefits by saving other humans or by killing zombies. You actually need to get your teammates killed to win. I won once just by hiding behind some boxes until all of the other humans were dead. What we need in Zombies is some reward for humans that stick together, and some way for the humans to defeat the zombies entirely.

We could play Zombies as rounds of multi-bomb assault. The zombies don't try to plant a bomb. Instead, they try to convert the humans. The humans work together to plant the bomb, and wipe out all of the zombies. Every time a human changes to a zombie, the human stays a zombie in the next round. Humans win by winning enough rounds to "wipe out" all of the zombies. Zombies win by converting all humans. The humans have an incentive to work together and maintain numerical strength. The last surving human doesn't win by hiding alone, because the zombies aren't wiped out. The starting lone zombie for a new match would be the person who had the most kills on either side in the last match.


I agree. That's why I suggested having the hill counter move faster with additioinal team members. This truly gives the humans a reason to work together. But the assult variation sounds promissing as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:42 am
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Incitatus
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Anonymous wrote:
The problem with tweaking Zombies is the 'win' conditions. If you're the last human left alive (under any circumstances), you win. You get only small benefits by saving other humans or by killing zombies. You actually need to get your teammates killed to win. I won once just by hiding behind some boxes until all of the other humans were dead. What we need in Zombies is some reward for humans that stick together, and some way for the humans to defeat the zombies entirely.


This has never really been a problem. The humans will lose, there are no ifs ands or butts about it Wink.
The objective of the game is then to not be the last human to sing, but to attempt to keep yourself alive for the longest possible amount of time.
Now generally when playing a Zombie game, the Humans will pick an easily defendable point, reinforce it with hog turrets and people, and simply deffend. As your teamates die, they increase the force of the zombies. The only advantage the humans have is shear firepower over the zombies' manpower. This is why as the zombies attempt their various stratagies (however limited) at usurping the deffence point, they find it difficult or impossible, until they have sufficient numbers. Decreasing your firepower and increasing their numbers makes survival harder for you. It makes no sense to allow your fellow man/woman to fall to the brain eaters. Sticking together happens naturally and quickly, or the game ends very early on.

As far as reward goes, I think the prestigue of being the last man standing is good insentive, of course that also means your the first man to become a zombie the next round. For a game that is impossible to win, who's objective is to loose fantasticly, it works pretty well as is. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:45 am
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Grifter_7
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Anonymous wrote:
The problem with tweaking Zombies is the 'win' conditions. If you're the last human left alive (under any circumstances), you win. You get only small benefits by saving other humans or by killing zombies. You actually need to get your teammates killed to win. I won once just by hiding behind some boxes until all of the other humans were dead. What we need in Zombies is some reward for humans that stick together, and some way for the humans to defeat the zombies entirely.

We could play Zombies as rounds of multi-bomb assault. The zombies don't try to plant a bomb. Instead, they try to convert the humans. The humans work together to plant the bomb, and wipe out all of the zombies. Every time a human changes to a zombie, the human stays a zombie in the next round. Humans win by winning enough rounds to "wipe out" all of the zombies. Zombies win by converting all humans. The humans have an incentive to work together and maintain numerical strength. The last surving human doesn't win by hiding alone, because the zombies aren't wiped out. The starting lone zombie for a new match would be the person who had the most kills on either side in the last match.


Good Post. I agree, though I think it would be less confusing if it were just neutral bomb rather than multi-bomb, and the rounds could be set to "first to 3", and the timelimit set to "Unlimited".

I am sorry that I could only play one game with the crew last night, my girlfriend was visiting and it was time for Smallville.
But i'm glad we beat those bastards that were giving our racial slurs like candy. Hopefully we can all get together tonight and bring down the hammer of justice on cheaters and racists again.
(I don't know where the hammer of justice came from but it sure is fun to weild.)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:49 am
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INCyr
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Quote:
The problem with tweaking Zombies is the 'win' conditions. If you're the last human left alive (under any circumstances), you win. You get only small benefits by saving other humans or by killing zombies. You actually need to get your teammates killed to win. I won once just by hiding behind some boxes until all of the other humans were dead. What we need in Zombies is some reward for humans that stick together, and some way for the humans to defeat the zombies entirely.


I don't think that you "win" zombies if you're the last human left. I don't think there IS a way to "win" zombies. At least not the original version. There are just ways to make it take a lot longer.

Quote:
We could play Zombies as rounds of multi-bomb assault. The zombies don't try to plant a bomb. Instead, they try to convert the humans. The humans work together to plant the bomb, and wipe out all of the zombies. Every time a human changes to a zombie, the human stays a zombie in the next round. Humans win by winning enough rounds to "wipe out" all of the zombies. Zombies win by converting all humans. The humans have an incentive to work together and maintain numerical strength. The last surving human doesn't win by hiding alone, because the zombies aren't wiped out. The starting lone zombie for a new match would be the person who had the most kills on either side in the last match.


How many rounds would it take to "wipe out" all the zombies? I think this is an interesting variation, although I'd just make it a single round. The humans have to plant the bomb, and the zombies have to try and stop them. Or you could do Capture the flag. I.E. the humans have to run into zombie-infected area, get the "cure", and bring it back home to cure everyone.

As it is, the capture the flag variant is kinda fun. Although you need to adjust the parameters according to party size. And what the correct parameters are haven't quite been established yet. 3 minutes to win/15 minute round is almost good, although 3 might be too long.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:57 am
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Foz
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Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 90

 		I think that last night was the most fun I have ever had on Halo 2 without really playing Halo 2.

Just put yourself in the shoes of an innocent bystander just looking for a Rumble game. Then imagine yourself standing in the snipers nest in Lockout. You look down and see 7 pink Master Chiefs with Red Lip logos dancing around a skull to the Benny Hill Theme Song.

You stay the entire time and watch in awe. At the Post Game Carnage Report you say the only thing you could say, "You guys are nuts."

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:59 am
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DreamOfTheRood
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Joined: 08 Sep 2004
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Dasro_Kast wrote:
Hey everybody. Just want to apologize for being an irritable teammate for most of the games last night, especially DreamoftheRood, ariock, atdt, and manowar. I was having a really awful day, and I think I ended up taking it out on you guys, when I was really just frustrated at myself. I'm sorry.


Apology accepted.
Everybody has a bad day, dude, and this is a great way to deal with stress. I hold no grudges toward you.

Gohon, however, is another story.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:03 pm
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CoffeeJedi
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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Location: Charlotte NC, USA
Incitatus wrote:

This has never really been a problem. The humans will lose, there are no ifs ands or butts about it Wink

That's very in keeping with the spirit of John Romero's movies. No matter how much smarter the living are, the dead will always overwhelm them: "Death eats Life".
Zombies may be slow, they may have no ability to strategize, but what they lack they make up for in sheer numbers.
In actuallity the Zombies should be relatively easy to escape. But what happens when you put the survivors in an enclosed space? Their own in-fighting and egos get them killed.
So the idea of a few human players hanging back firing away, running out of ammo with a large number of undead marching toward them is exactly the feel we should be going for here. If you start to complicate the concept, its no longer 'Zombies' anymore.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:22 pm
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Clayfoot
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Joined: 19 Aug 2004
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Anonymous wrote:
The problem with tweaking Zombies is the 'win' conditions.
Sorry. That's me. I came in through the RSS feed, but forgot to login before posting.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:51 pm
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Dasro_Kast
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Joined: 26 Oct 2004
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Clayfoot wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
The problem with tweaking Zombies is the 'win' conditions.
Sorry. That's me. I came in through the RSS feed, but forgot to login before posting.


Oh, that was you? In that case, I think that zombie bomb suggestion is a terrible idea.


Just kidding Smile Actually, I think everyone's brought up very good points about the nature of "zombies". Lollipops for everyone.

And foz? That sounds like a really bad dream. Or trip. Or dreamtrip. Are you sure you were playing halo 2? Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:02 pm
Last edited by Dasro_Kast on Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Clayfoot
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Grifter_7 wrote:
Hopefully we can all get together tonight and bring down the hammer of justice on cheaters and racists again.
(I don't know where the hammer of justice came from but it sure is fun to wield.)
Hammer of Justice
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:02 pm
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Clayfoot
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 		In changing "Zombies", I want to make it so the last human isn't on a turret or hiding alone, while everyone else serves as easy prey. If the humans have a way to wipe out or to cure the zombies (Didn't they use a nuke in one movie?), then the humans can "win" as a team.

The "most kills = next zombie" rule reduces the incentive to hide until it's all over. Even though becoming the next zombie isn't technically winning, it has a certain cache that makes it worthwhile. If nothing else, you're not bored for the first half of the next round.

I like Grifter's neutral bomb, unlimited time suggestion. The zombies could guard the bomb, guard the base, or attack the humans. If the humans don't plant the bomb quickly enough, the zombies will overwhelm them. Instead of most kills, we could optionally make the bomb planter the next zombie ('cause she got splattered with zombie juice, right?).
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:24 pm
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Grifter_7
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Clayfoot wrote:
Grifter_7 wrote:
Hopefully we can all get together tonight and bring down the hammer of justice on cheaters and racists again.
(I don't know where the hammer of justice came from but it sure is fun to wield.)
Hammer of Justice
$59.95
with customized engraving up to 30 characters.


Thanks for finding the origin of the Hammer of Justice. Now if only this thing came with an instruction manual...
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:43 pm
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INCyr
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Clayfoot wrote:
In changing "Zombies", I want to make it so the last human isn't on a turret or hiding alone, while everyone else serves as easy prey. If the humans have a way to wipe out or to cure the zombies (Didn't they use a nuke in one movie?), then the humans can "win" as a team.


I'd say we try a capture the flag variation for that. No vehicles though, that'd be too easy. For some reason I think that an assault variant just won't work as well. Also Silrn has a zombie variant with limited lives, so the humans can "win" by killing the zombies enough until they don't respawn anymore.

Clayfoot wrote:
The "most kills = next zombie" rule reduces the incentive to hide until it's all over. Even though becoming the next zombie isn't technically winning, it has a certain cache that makes it worthwhile. If nothing else, you're not bored for the first half of the next round.

I like Grifter's neutral bomb, unlimited time suggestion. The zombies could guard the bomb, guard the base, or attack the humans. If the humans don't plant the bomb quickly enough, the zombies will overwhelm them. Instead of most kills, we could optionally make the bomb planter the next zombie ('cause she got splattered with zombie juice, right?).


I like making the bomb planter the next zombie. I will reiterate my opinion above and say that I think this won't work that well. Purely because if the humans are decent, and go as a group, they'll be able to plant the bomb before the zombies manage to get a good sized group. If they're really good, they'll be able to plant the bomb before the zombie gets a kill. Granted, CTF doesn't change it that much, but you have to go across the map twice, instead of once at least. But then again, I could be wrong and this will work wonderfully.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:37 pm
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