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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » ARG: Lenny's Xanga
Lenny's Xanga
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macey99
Boot

Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 18
Location: UK
Kelis wrote:

The phone number came from the email address @30STS. That was determined to be 30th street station in Philly. When Siren's cousin went to check out the physical location, the phone rang so he answered it. It was an angry sounding woman who wanted to know what he knew. He said he didn't know anything and that he was asked to come and check out the phone. Then the woman said she'll call back Tuesday at 7PM.



yeah, i remember that, and I think someone should be there at 7 regardless, but if I remember we never worked out who the woman was. For all we know it could be someone who was reading the forums and decided to call the number.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:55 pm
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Duckie
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Joined: 17 Oct 2004
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macey99 wrote:
For all we know it could be someone who was reading the forums and decided to call the number.


That crossed my mind, as well.... Confused
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:57 pm
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macey99
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Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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 		guess we'll find out later...

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:00 pm
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Crowfoot
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Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 385
Location: UK

 		To be honest, it might not matter that the timing is mucked up. If I remember correctly, Siren's cousin was contacted when he randomly turned up. This could mean that there is someone watching the payphone. Regardless, I say we stick to the 7:00 timings. It may shed some light on the database completion puzzle.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:14 pm
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Iscariot
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Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Now and then, here and there

 		Is it possible that because the calculated time in the email pointed to a different time and day, that it's in reference to another will-be-occurance all together and not tied in to the phone call later tonight?

Just a thought; that could be why there's a time difference between the time the phone is to be answered (7PM Tuesday) as opposed to the time in the email (7:30 AM Wednesday).

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:40 pm
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
bartmans wrote:
Phaedra wrote:

And I wonder where they're going with the Ecclesia/Synagoga pairing.

JHOM wrote:
Ecclesia and Synagoga were the names given to the symbolic personification in medieval Christian art of Christianity's triumph over Judaism. This early type of anti-Jewish propaganda...



Oh well, at least Synagoga seems nicer and less, well, b*tchy than Ecclesia.


If Synagoga ans Ecclesia (or Ecclasianastia?) are really the twin sisters, then I do not understand who has been pestering Lenny. It can't be Synagoga, since she seems to be unaware of the existence of a sister (she even didn't know the word), and it woyld certainly also not be Ecclesia, since she obviously knows where Synagoga is.

Further, there is something strange about the relation between Synagoga/Ecclesia (Judaism/christianism) and the actual conversations with Synagoga: it seems that Ecclesia (as a part of the 'they' that Synagoga talks about) is trying to gear her up for some sort of a task.


Well, from what I read, she's been yelling at her, telling her she doesn't know what's going on, and talking about G-d a lot.

Like Christians have never done that to Jews, even with the idea that they've already been declared victorious?

Sounds quite in keeping with their symbolic/religious roles, if you ask me.

I REALLY wish they'd picked a different pair of sisters.

If they stick to the traditional roles of Ecclesia/Synagoga, i.e. Synagoga is blind (sometimes willfully blind) and ignorant of the truth, and triumphed over/dejected/all the things those medieval Christians delighted in portraying her as, and Ecclesia Knows The Truth, and is Right and Holy and all that jazz, it's antisemitic. If they decide to reverse the roles and have Synagoga be right, it's anti-Christian.

Either way, to continue to use this imagery is to make a subtly unpleasant religious statement about one of the two faiths.

I don't see a safe way out of this for them.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:48 pm
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Nadif
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005
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 		To be honest, it seems to me that all the deeply religious implications of the two names, and their supposed relation, and the symbolism etc., all of this it's just coming from OUR speculations. With the exception of the names, the rest is just a lot of thinking (or overthinking?) we came out with. Not a single word coming from the "sisters" is pro- or anti- nothing, or implies any kind of actual religious affiliation, indoctrination or superiority.
I understand that, when it comes to faith, a lot of people gets easlily worried and/or upset; but, until we see something that really gives us reasons to worry, and not just speculations, I think we should just take it easy and stick to what is in-game. If we start suspecting things just because, surfing ten links after a pair of words, we find a site talking about religious supremacy, we are slightly losing it, i think.
It's the old "search engine" problem: if you google for "Olocaust", there's always a chance you find a page made by some negationist bastard, but that doesn't mean that anyone using the word Olocaust is a negationist just because you found that one page on google...

Oh, by the way, allow me to insist on this: the name it's "Ecclesiaste", not "Ecclesia", and there's a damn enormous difference. Ecclesia is latin for Church and it's a Christian word, while Ecclesiaste is the latin translation of Qohelet, which is one of the books from the Old Testament. So, as far as I know, we're just dealing with two Jewish pieces of religion.

M.

M.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:27 pm
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TicTac
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Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 74
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 		To further confuse things, right under the comment section of Lenny's Blog this is written:


Note: your comment will appear in Lenny_J's local time zone:
GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)

Note that it says Eastern Standard and not Pacific as we would assume.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:45 pm
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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Nadif wrote:
To be honest, it seems to me that all the deeply religious implications of the two names, and their supposed relation, and the symbolism etc., all of this it's just coming from OUR speculations.


With all due respect, I think that is a very naive viewpoint.

1) The words ecclesia and synagoga, taken separately, mean simply "church" and "synagogue." I'll grant you that.

But they're not apppearing separately. They're not appearing as themselves, in something discussing churches and synagogues. They're appearing as the names of two sisters, one of whom is blind, and who are apparently set in opposition to one another.

In other words, they're not ecclesia and synagoga, they're Ecclesia and Synagoga. And when they appear as sisters, one of whom is blind (these are not my "speculations," these are elements used by the game itself) they are references to the medieval characters of the two sisters, whose sole literary/artistic purpose was antisemitic Church propaganda. To say that the use of these names for sisters in the game, one blind (!), one who apparently talks about G-d a lot --

Wait, wait. Let's review this again.

There are two sisters. One is named Synagoga. One is named Ecclesia (I know you objected to that, saying that her name was Ecclesiastes, but you forget that Synagoga called her something similar to that, but then admitted that she wasn't saying it right. These are stock characters. Her name is Ecclesia -- if it weren't, her sister wouldn't be called Synagoga). Synagoga is blind. She doesn't know what is going on. Ecclesia does, and is apparently not blind. Ecclesia talks about G-d a lot and yells at Synagoga.

NONE of this is my "speculation." These are the facts of the game.

They're a reference. The chance that all those elements would come together randomly is miniscule. They're a conscious reference.

To say that they have no religious significance is like saying that two characters in a game named Jesus and Judas, the first of whom happens to be divine and the second of whom happens to betray the first by kissing him on the cheek, have no religious significance.

The WHOLE REASON authors make allusions to the Bible, to folklore, to mythology, and to other literature is to play on the weight with which such references are freighted.

Quote:
With the exception of the names, the rest is just a lot of thinking (or overthinking?) we came out with.


No, it's not. Again, that's why authors make allusions and literary/mythological/folkloric/religious references. Because they want the overtones.

Closing your eyes to the kind of ugliness embodied by the artisitic and literary characters that this game references doesn't make it go away.

Quote:
Not a single word coming from the "sisters" is pro- or anti- nothing, or implies any kind of actual religious affiliation, indoctrination or superiority.


Again, that's either naive or willfully ignorant.

Your argument is akin to this.

A character from Nazi propaganda...or how about Shylock. Yep, let's go with Shylock.

There's a story with a character whose name is Shylock Goldstein. He happens to be rich. He happens to have a daughter named Jessica. He happens to get in a spat with a Catholic guy named Antonio and sues him for a pound of flesh.

He doesn't ever actually mention that he's Jewish, although he embodies all those anti-Jewish stereotypes.

"Oh," you could say, "but he never said he was Jewish."

SYMBOLS HAVE MEANING.

Please note: I AM NOT SAYING THE PMs ARE NECESSARILY OF THE WORLDVIEW REPRESENTED BY THE MEDIEVAL FIGURES THEIR CHARACTERS ARE NAMED AFTER.

I'm just saying I find their choice of references highly troubling and distasteful, and am unsure how they will be able to deploy th

Quote:
If we start suspecting things just because, surfing ten links after a pair of words, we find a site talking about religious supremacy, we are slightly losing it, i think.


Losing what, pray tell? Please, elaborate.

It wasn't "ten links after a pair of words." Please go do your research.

It was all the links. They weren't religious supremacy sites, they were sites discussing medieval religious art.

Again, these are a pair of medieval figures, sort of like Harlequin and the other figures from Commedia dell'arte. Or like figures from mythology: Artemis and Apollo. They are symbols. They have meaning. Meaning that's not just a matter of interpretation. Quite to the contrary, they were SPECIFICALLY CREATED as vessels for that meaning.

Quote:
It's the old "search engine" problem: if you google for "Olocaust", there's always a chance you find a page made by some negationist bastard, but that doesn't mean that anyone using the word Olocaust is a negationist just because you found that one page on google...


Are you trying to talk about the Holocaust?

See above. That is not even close to what's going on here.


Quote:
Oh, by the way, allow me to insist on this:


With all due respect: No. I'm sure you'll insist whether I "allow" you to or not, but you are wrong.

Quote:
the name it's "Ecclesiaste", not "Ecclesia", and there's a damn enormous difference.


Remember how Synagoga said she couldn't pronounce Ecclesia's name right? It's not Ecclesiastes, it's Ecclesia.

Quote:
Ecclesia is latin for Church and it's a Christian word, while Ecclesiaste is the latin translation of Qohelet


Rolling Eyes

Ecclesia is GREEK. The Romans just imported the word. Ecclesiastes is ALSO Greek, and it means "preacher." Koheleth can mean a preacher or a teacher.

Ecclesia is not a "Christian word." It meant a gathering of people long before Jesus was a sparkle in his mother's eye. LONG before that.

Quote:
which is one of the books from the Old Testament. So, as far as I know, we're just dealing with two Jewish pieces of religion.


No, we're not. The symbolic figures of Ecclesia and Synagoga are Christian inventions. They have no place in Judaism.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:45 pm
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scared of Phaedra
Guest


 		Surprised really encouraging words for Newbies to this hobby. Good job. I think you're letting your distaste for the religeous references cloud your judgment.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:05 pm
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Silent Gabe
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 		I Need info. Is there someone even on that payphone!?! We need something to record it...

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:31 pm
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dmon_man
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Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 140
Location: Sacramento, CA

 		...if you want a view of paradise, simply look around...
I believe Phaedra is correct, you can't strip the meanings out of symbols and hope to live an informed life.

However, I would argue that what is missing from this argument is the context in which these symbols are being used. In the same way you can't ignore the meaning of symbols, you can't ignore the context in which they're placed or you'll drive yourself insane. (Anyone who enjoys comedy will know what I'm talking about).

When we examine the symbols being used in this game might some find them offensive? Surely, but what happens when we examine the context in which they are being used.

Let's be honest here, so far this game hasn't been that deep or intellectually challenging. Rather it's been a hodgepodge of other games, a few simple puzzles and a few tedious AIM conversations.

Perhaps the author/PM is anti-Semitic, but I don't think so. Rather I'm betting, he/she/they came up with an idea and then searched for something that fit that idea. They failed to analyze what they found and the meanings behind the symbols they chose aren't exactly common knowledge.

I, for one, won't damn them for that, at least not yet.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:52 pm
Last edited by dmon_man on Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jordanmc
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Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 87
Location: Central Texas

 		Why is everyone so scared of talking about religion anyway? Just because you might step on some toes. I know religion has deep significance to a majority of the worlds population as it does for me, but that doesn't scare me off from talking about it even if that involves historic injustices or current prejudices. No one ever said an ARG has to be politically correct; and we don't even know for sure yet if Synagoga and Eclesia is even related to Lenny's Xanga so this whole discussion may be premature.

I get the feeling however that whenever we hear what this phone call, that theoretically happened 8 minutes ago, is about then this whole discussion will be altered or dropped.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:06 pm
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Caterpillar
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Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 1887
Location: cem's otherbody

 		Re: ...if you want a view of paradise, simply look around...
dmon_man wrote:
However, I would argue that what is missing from this argument is the context in which these symbols are being used. In the same way you can't ignore the meaning of symbols, you can't ignore the context in which they're placed or you'll drive yourself insane.


Well said.

It's a game, and one that's barely begun at that. No one can pretend to know where it's going, and I don't think we should condemn (or condone) something until we know all the facts.

For now I simply see Synagoga and Ecclesia as adversaries, nothing more, and will wait for further clarification on that point.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:13 pm
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Just_Dogood
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Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 14
Location: United States

 		A little off topic but...
Alright this might seem a little off topic but I remember there being talk of a date at the end of halo 2 if you beat it on legendary or something. I think that date was some time recently, anyone remember what it was?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:14 pm
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