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 Forum index » Diversions » Console/Video Game Discussion
[Halo 2] ILB players get together on LIVE
Moderators: krystyn
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DreamOfTheRood
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Gestas wrote:
EDIT: Many apologies to DreamOfTheRood who is trying to get this thread back on-topic. I suggest if anyone wants to continue this, we start a thread in Meta? (Personally, I'm done Wink)


That's all right. Go ahead.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:25 am
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Fenwicked
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SuperJerms wrote:
Talking to Chuck, I really got the impression that MS would see this sort of fan-fic as a sign of the ARG's success as a viral marketing campaign.

Bingo. At its heart, ILB was a viral marketing campaign. Any mention of or reference to it can only be viewed by Microsoft as successful advertising.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:25 am
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DreamOfTheRood
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Fenwicked wrote:
SuperJerms wrote:
Talking to Chuck, I really got the impression that MS would see this sort of fan-fic as a sign of the ARG's success as a viral marketing campaign.

Bingo. At its heart, ILB was a viral marketing campaign. Any mention of or reference to it can only be viewed by Microsoft as successful advertising.


That is great spin.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:26 am
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ubersaurus
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 		Sorry I couldn't hop in the game earlier, I was on a roll with some friends of mine from another forum Razz

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:39 am
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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SuperJerms wrote:
Clayfoot wrote:
Phaedra wrote:
It's still copyright infringement if it's published. Which this is. Most companies look the other way regarding fanfic because it doesn't pose a threat to the work upon which it's based -- most fanfic is based on novels, movies or TV shows. It operates in a different medium and causes no confusion.

But this IS operating in the same medium.

It's not copyright infringement if you're talking about it. Microsoft can't sue you for talking about ILB.

But the moment they start actually using ILB's characters in their game...
Right. And copyright holders have even be known to pursue fan sites for producing (second rate) content that diminished the marketability of the original. Still, is there some precedent for pursuing those who violate the copyright on a marketing campaign? Since the content producers charged nothing for the material from the beginning, and since there are no apparent plans to continue the story, what harm could a copyright violater actually do? Would it even be worthwhile for Microsoft to pursue copyright violations against a work that they never intend to use (advertise or sell outright) again? Looking at it another way: If the copyright for "I Love Bees" was for sale, how much would it be worth?


Well, there is a fair use clause in copyright law, and this would (for now) be covered by the clause because it's noncompetitive (fiscally) and non-harmful to the original intellectual property.


I disagree that it's harmless. 4orty 2wo is a marketing company, and their reputation, while intangible, is one of their most valuable commodities.

It may indeed cause them harm to be confused with the rather inept people behind LX.

Furthermore, the characters and story of ILB are intellectual property. The PMs have an interest in protecting their property.

Finally, (and yes, irrelevantly from a legal standpoint) I find the way that the people behind LX are using ILB quite distasteful.

Quote:
That doesn't keep people from using scare tactics (hollow threats of lawsuit, or even frivilous lawsuit to get the offending party to comply), and MS could certainly do this.


I work with trademark, not copyright, attorneys, but believe me, the threats of lawsuits are rarely hollow. And while I doubt this will come to a lawsuit, there is a line that the LX people haven't crossed yet, but should they, I would cheer on the Microsoft attorneys.

Quote:
It would be a bad, bad PR move and would just reinforce the all-too-prevalent view of MS as an evil monopolistic corporation.


Warning: Strongly worded section ahead. If you approve of LX, you may not want to read this.

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Heh. The PMs of ILB put over a year of very intense work into ILB. I'm sure they would be flattered if players took some of the ideas from ILB and used them innovatively and creatively. Tributes/fanfic are one thing, blatant ripoffs attempting to capitalize on ILB's creativity and popularity, by people who simply recycle the ideas (and do it poorly, which in my mind adds insult to injury) are quite another.

Quote:
Besides, I really don't think that Chuck (or anyone thinking like him) would do this. Talking to Chuck, I really got the impression that MS would see this sort of fan-fic as a sign of the ARG's success as a viral marketing campaign.


Fanfic maybe, ripoffs no.

I assume you're referring to Chuck Blevens? I'm not so sure. I remember very differently -- in fact, I recall afterwards contrasting the PMs' lenient attitude toward the distribution of their material to his.

In the ARG world, publicity/audience is everything. We don't pay to play: the only 'payment' the PMs get from us is our participation. In other words, "buzz" is the currency of the ARG medium.

Go over and look at how busy the LX forum is. They have "buzz" aplenty.

And why?

Not because they're doing an innovative, creative game. Not because the writing is good and is keeping people intrigued.

No, they've got all this attention because they mentioned Melissa. People are holding their breath about the GPS coordinates for payphones. Posters are cheering that this is ILB2.

In other words, their "buzz" is stolen. And it's stolen from people for whom I have a great deal of respect and affection. Thus far, it's a slavish retelling of a story that is over.

Thank goodness they have had the decency, thus far at least, not to try to revive characters from ILB. Such characters, out of the hands of their creators, would in my mind be zombie-like, hollow renditions of characters I love.

Quote:
'Course, I have better things to do than mope about someone who I think has done something stupid.


Really? Is moping the only response you can envision?

I recently had a discussion via PM with a beekeeper who was of the opinion that there ought to be official standards for what was "allowed" on or acknowledged as an ARG by Unfiction. He wanted quality standards, and he was of the opinion that Lenny's Xanga should never have been allowed here.

I disagree strenuously. I feel that the open acceptance policy of Unfiction encourages and nurtures the growth of the genre. If there were standards that had to be met, it might prevent PMs from trying things that were risky and innovative. (And a willingness to be risky and innovative is what got the genre started in the first place.) It might also scare off novice PMs from attempting their first ARG. In addition, the way things work now allow PMs who have a certain style or focus (lots of puzzles, narrative-heavy, player-directed, etc.) to match up with players who like that style.

I strongly believe that ARGs are an important development in the future of marketing. I want the genre to grow and evolve.

That said, one of the reasons Unfiction works and that people come here and often stay after their ARG is over, is because we are, to a certain extent, self-policing.

There are very few official rules here about what you can post and what you can't. That's because, to a large extent, the community enforces the rules, rather than the mods or admins. The sanctions aren't handed out arbitrarily by a few officials who decide what's allowed and what isn't -- they're enforced through the expressed disapproval of the community.

So, we have an unusually friendly, warm, and safe environment, because the community objects when people do things that undermine those qualities. If an argument becomes too heated or personal, people start attempting to diffuse it or gently let the participants know that they're approaching the line ("look! Bunnies!").

The same doesn't always work for standards of quality. A significant portion of the players of Lenny's Xanga are newcomers. This holds true for a lot of the ARGs currently going on. That's mostly a good thing. I've been unable to get involved with any of the current ARGs because I don't find them grabbing my interest (or pulling on my heartstrings) the way ILB did. But many of the newcomers are playing games that I find lacking and going, "Wow! This is so cool." As I said, this is mostly a good thing. We get new players and knowledge of the ARG genre spreads. Inexperienced PMs get a chance to try new things and sometimes even mess up without losing their audience.

On the other hand, there's a supply and demand dynamic going on here, too. And right now, it's demand, demand, demand. Even stuff that appears (to me at least) to be shoddily or lazily done gets players. That removes a great deal of pressure on PMs to produce something really well-executed and novel.

The balancing factor is, of course, that PMs running shoddy games don't, generally, get many players.

I'm fine with the way that works.

But I'm worried about the message the level of interest in LX is sending, which right now I'm reading as, "If you piggyback hard enough off someone else's success, you'll succeed too! Forget good writing, good puzzles, carefully thought-out character interaction, and all that jazz."

It seems to me that there's a certain ethic of noninterference going on here. If you don't like a game, don't play it. But otherwise, stay out of it. People don't seem comfortable commenting on how they feel about a game unless their feelings are positive. If the issue is solely one of quality, perhaps that's a necessary restraint.

Again, I don't want novice PMs being scared away because experienced players descend on their thread and declare the game hopeless after its first two days.

But with Lenny's Xanga, it seems to me that something's rotten, and it's not just the writing. I feel there's theft going on, in spirit even if not literally. And I'm not sure that, in that case, we should feel bound by the same courtesies of refraining from commenting that we would adhere to in other circumstances.

I know not all of you see something wrong with what they're doing, and I'm not trying to convince you to jump on the bandwagon. You have a right to your opinion.

But for those of you who do feel uneasy or offended by what the people behind LX are doing: our only power is that of our words, and our only ability to sanction or to shape what is happening is through the expression of our approval or disapproval.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:46 am
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Clayfoot
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Gestas wrote:
Mind you, I admit to bias here - I'm very much of the opinion that a world where John Cage can force an out-of-court settlement on someone for infringing on the "sound of silence" is a world where copyright laws need to be re-written!
Then, take comfort in the knowledge that the case was settled because the plaintiff's case was so weak, and because the alleged infringer had such great personal respect for John Cage.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2276621.stm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:18 am
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krystynModerator
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
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 		I'd really like it if this thread were brought back to its topic, and Phaedra, if you could start a thread on this in the Meta section (and, throw us a link to it!). It's an interesting discussion, but it's spammy enough here with our loving smacktalk and the philosophical deconstruction of blue glowy things.

Thanks!

(I know you brought it here because it's ILB-related, but I also think it's a genre-wide topic that might generate some good discussion, too)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:20 am
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Clayfoot
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vortech wrote:
Clayfoot wrote:
Would it even be worthwhile for Microsoft to pursue copyright violations against a work that they never intend to use (advertise or sell outright) again? Looking at it another way: If the copyright for "I Love Bees" was for sale, how much would it be worth?
The market value of the work is entirely unrelated to the level of protection it is given. The infringement is harm in itself and the copyright holder need not show actual harm to support infringement. Once infringement is proven, the infringer can take their chances on the fair use wheel of unpredictability.
Sure. My point was more about how worthwhile it would be for the copyright holder to pursure an infringement claim for a work from which they never expected to profit.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:23 am
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Clayfoot
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krystyn wrote:
it's spammy enough here with our loving smacktalk and the philosophical deconstruction of blue glowy things.
Hear, hear. Maybe, we could elevate this thread to a topic and break out the discussion into something more manageable than 168 pages (and counting). Maybe, a new thread each week, starting on Monday morning at 12am EST? Or, Friday morning? What cycles drive this thread, anyway?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:11 am
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INCyr
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Clayfoot wrote:
What cycles drive this thread, anyway?




Lightcycles!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:16 am
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krystynModerator
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
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 		INCyr's my hero for the next six hours.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:18 am
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Ozy_y2k
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 		I wonder: why does EVERY SINGLE ARG seem to devolve, at some point post-game, into a discussion about copyright, fair use and other legal principles? Surprised

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:22 am
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krystynModerator
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 		It's the intellectual property, man. It's hard to create puzzles and use references that will draw a community together without using material that is already created. Popular songs, quotations (hello, Martin's diary had Shakespearian passcodes, Caesar's puzzles similarly so), images, symbolism, mythology.

It's a tricky dance, as you well know.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:26 am
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Ozy_y2k
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 		Yeah. Makes me wonder sometimes if we in the legal system haven't just gotten the core fundamentals wrong, and that even attempting to base a system of property rights on intangibles such as ideas and concepts isn't a flawed concept at the core.

----------------------------

EDITED TO ADD NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO RESPOND TO THE ABOVE MUSING. I was just idly thinking out loud, and this thread has been 'jacked badly enough already without yet another discursion. Shocked

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:30 am
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krystynModerator
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


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 		Yeah! Go start a new thread already, or I'll - I'll -- I'll smack you in the head while you're trying to snipe the hell out of my team! I will! I've done it before, and I'll do it again!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:32 am
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