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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Lenny's Xanga and ILB copyright issues
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
aliendial wrote:
Well said, dmon_man. I've seen it before. NOTHING turns off players and community members more than judgmental dissection of games. There's a difference between polite criticism ("Hmm, sucky game.") and running them off with personal attacks ("Hey you crook! Put back those copyrighted materials that I don't even know for sure are copyrighted or by who!").


1) I committed no personal attacks.

2) You think, "hmm, sucky game" is polite criticism?

3) I do know that the material is copyrighted, and I do know by whom.

Quote:
We can express concern, but ultimately the responsibility is not ours. 4orty2wo and MS can take care of themselves.


4) Did I ever suggest anything beyond expression of concern?

Quote:
Is it time to put word limits on posts?


I beg your pardon?
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Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:37 pm
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weephun
Entrenched


Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Fuquay Varina, NC
SuperJerms wrote:
Is anyone here really out to get anyone else? I don't think so. 'Cept for weephun. Hate that guy. He killed the sleeping princess. Wink


Twisted Evil Just watch your back Twisted Evil

...

Laughing Rolling Eyes
_________________
- Sean Stewart: "generally people like seeing their names on TV, although probably no one has had a more mixed experience with that then weephun, God bless him.
- Currently assisting Epic Games in their quest for world domination

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:46 pm
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dmon_man
Veteran

Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 140
Location: Sacramento, CA

 		...i've been through the desert on a horse with no name...
I believe this dead horse has officially been kicked.

In short, I think we can all agree that criticism needs to be carefully worded, especially when it comes from more experienced players like yourselves. Whether you like it or not, you guys are the pros and us neophytes look to you for guidance.

Policing should be used only in serious circumstances. A perfect example of this was the quick action taken by Unfiction moderators when some jackass tried to start a game about blowing up the White House a few weeks back. A warning was issued and the site was locked.

As for copyrights, the general consensus seems to be that unless it's grossly blatant and obviously a breach of the law we shouldn't worry about it. (When a problem does arise, it may be better to avoid posting your concerns directly to the players forum and instead PM a moderator.)

Speaking of copyright…aliendial, I'll see you in court for unauthorized use of my work on page 2.

Quote:
Borrowing just a snippet of a good post from the first page:

dmon_man wrote:
Policing, I believe, will make new players feel that they are unwelcome. This great site will become like so many other places on the Internet a clique that welcomes some and shuns, degrades and lambastes others. I would hate to read somewhere, "don't go to the forums at unfiction, they're a bunch of assholes."

Let the games, bad or good, keep coming. Welcome them and welcome the new players they attract. If a game is bad and the players recognize it, try to coax them to another game the really rocks. They will appreciate it and so will the good PM's who see more and more dedicated players visiting their sites. This way the rotten fruit will fall off the tree.

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Handsome Boy Modeling School

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:07 pm
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vector
Unfettered


Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 721
Location: Portland OR

 		Just had to give it a few more kicks didnt ya.
Rolling Eyes Wink

:::runs over to dead horse, hits croutch button repeatidly while shooting it in the head yelling @$*!@$#!:::
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:37 pm
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QBKooky
Decorated


Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 281

 		Re: not an issue
Phaedra wrote:
rose wrote:
My point is that we don't know who holds the copyrights.
Microsoft.
I've only been following the LX controversy very loosely, but here's my two cents:

Microsoft does hold the copyrights. I know this as a fact because I emailed Elan himself asking him for permission to use "Perdita's Story" as the base for a performance piece I adapted. He responded saying that he was flattered, but couldn't give me the rights because everything belongs to Microsoft.

Luckily I'm able to get away with it because it's a non-profit, educational purpose (it's for Forensics as an extra-curricular at school).
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A clue!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:08 am
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		Is it for a Performance in the Round thing, QB, or Prose? Or what? DI?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:57 am
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Nightmare Tony
Entrenched

Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 824
Location: Meadowbrook

 		I would like to see that the authors of ARGs that borrow from previous IPs gain permission, maybe contact the IP holder before working their game?

The quality of a game is purely subjective, it depends on the makeup and vision of the PMs. Like a work of art, it can be hard to define. Thankfully, there are all new creative visions of ARGs, otherwise, we would be endlessly rehashin the Beast over and over ad nauseum.

Having fun with life. Got one unsane type who has thrown me a sue threat and is willing to sue a non profit acting school for kids because he THINKS he invented this system of walls....which is a public domain patent a hundred years old, and in very common usage. Its more of a spite thing. This thing is so laughable, hilarity ensues when I research, as its beyond airtight....
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Nightmare Park

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:24 am
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ariock
Has a Posse


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 762
Location: SF East Bay

 		So Much
Phaedra's post to the best of my understanding says:

1. LX is trying to use the cache of an existing hot property to build a fan base.

From the wrapup to LX:
Was there a connection to I Love Bees?
Yes. This game was, in fact, meant to be not only a tributary, but an unofficial fan-based extension into the story of I Love Bees that chronicled the further adventures of Jan, Jersey and Kamal during the initial invasion of earth by the Covenant.
Jets Connor wrote:
I have a question. Why was he called Lenny James if J^2's real name wasn't James?
A: I wanted to keep some sort of familiarity for beekeepers to pick up on. Also, while it is fact that J^2 wasn't a real name, it never really played into the story...it was never anything more than just an interesting side fact that I felt most players could have missed.

So this is in fact true.

2. While she is disappointed with the above, she DOESN'T believe that LX should be censored. We are "Self-Policing." Good stuff settles and the chaff gets discarded. LX self-destructed as many amateur ARGs apparently do. This &^$#$ is HARD. It seems like for every person saying there is no policing there is another saying how things should or should not be done on the forum.

3. Our only way of expressing our displeasure over an ARG that appears to be using (and I mean USING) our favorite characters and attempting to confuse the issue of its origin is to do so verbally here. Discourage others from participating.

Here is the problem. There appears to be little support among the mods and unfictionologists for this. We know there are lines that are not to be crossed by prospective PMs:

A. Do not have the story include terrorism against US landmarks in the story.

B. The LX forum was locked at one point when there was a question as to who was posting there. I assume this means that lying about who you are is wrong. So if LX PMs had said they were definitely from 42, that would have been actionable?

Here is my question. The very nature of an ARG is that the PMs must remain behind the curtain. In NO OTHER FORM of fan-fic does the fan not immediately say, "Here I am! I am not those guys! They have nothing to do with what I am doing here!" Where do we draw the line here? It could be argued that by not stating outright that they are NOT in any way related to 42 that they are implicitly saying that they are 42, especially considering how it was speculated about in the LX forum.

I went through the older posts, and saw that Phaedra was originally behind this game. As the game progresses, it is obvious that things are not coming together, and every time someone speculates that 42 is involved is a dagger in her heart. (so the dagger part wasn't so obvious, but a guess)

You honestly don't think that damages 42's reputation? There were people in that forum thinking that 42 was involved but who had missed out on ILB. You don't think this game imploding the way it did might have left them with a negative impression of 42?

That is naive

As Phaedra mentions later, this is NOT the same as a simple fanfic. It is NOT the same as Project MU.

This is more akin to the guy who published the fake Harry Potter novel where an inordinate amount of time was spent discussing bowel movements.

I don't know Project Mu. Did it include wholesale use of characters from the original movie and a new writing of their future escapades? In any case, Mu was not a movie. It was an ARG. It wasn't competing in the same marketplace where The Matrix was.

By using ILB as the basis for their ARG and not identifying that they are in no way connected to 42, they have crossed a line that Creeepy or welovebees or the wiki NEVER crossed. All of these specifically disavowed any connection to the creators of ILB. That is a BIIIIIIIIIIIG difference to me.

I also think there is a big difference between pointing out the serious flaws in LX and being overly negative or making everyone who comes to UF think it is a bastion for overly critical jerks. What is going on here is the discussion of boundaries. We can discuss boundaries without personal attacks.

Unfortunately, it appears that the only boundary is that the discussion of boundaries is forbidden? Sad That any boundaries are up to the mods and we shouldn't worry our purty little heads about it? Embarassed

So, let the policing begin! Cool
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"It says, 'Let's BEE friends'...and there's a picture of a bee!" -Ralph Wiggum
When the Apocalypse comes, it'll be in base64.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:46 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		clarification
Somehow this thread got derailed. While I know that ignoring ugliness and letting it die is the best advice, I am going to ignore that for a moment. (sorry)

QBKooky wrote:

Quote:
Microsoft does hold the copyrights. I know this as a fact because I emailed Elan himself asking him for permission to use "Perdita's Story" as the base for a performance piece I adapted. He responded saying that he was flattered, but couldn't give me the rights because everything belongs to Microsoft


Thanks for posting that! A performance piece based on "Perdita's Story" is an inspired idea.

Now for the self-justification:

The main point I tried to make about copyright law is that it is very complex, confusing and fact specific. I really don't think that we as a group are qualified to assess infringements, and, even if we were, we are not in any position to take action (other than notifying the holder.) For people interested, this site has a good "crash course" in copyright law.

And, most importantly, an apology:
As I said, somehow this thread got derailed. I apologize for any contributions my posts may have made to the whole mess. And that is the last I have to say about it. Promise. Very Happy
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I love this site for being free, in every sense of the word~Spacebass

Mankind was my business, the common good was my business.~ Dickens

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:10 am
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GuyP
Unfettered


Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK

 		ILB fanfic is probably about as well advised as writing some hot Koranic slash fiction.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:50 am
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QBKooky
Decorated


Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 281

 		[OFF TOPIC... sorry Sad!]

krystyn wrote:
Is it for a Performance in the Round thing, QB, or Prose? Or what? DI?
It's for forensics, in which there are lots of categories, but mine is Storytelling. It's where they give you five themes ("a wish", "greed", "siblings") and you have to find and memorize one story for each theme. I'm using Perdita's Story for my "Story about a Quest or Journey". I actually got to perform it for the first time today, but unfortunately I got so into the material that I went 2 minutes over the time limit! Eep.

[/OFF TOPIC]
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A clue!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:21 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		Excellent! Yeah, I forget that there's a huge spread of events depending on which state/country you're in, as far as forensics goes. How cool!

I miss coaching forensics, although I did some judging earlier this season. Good on you! That's so cool.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:26 pm
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vector
Unfettered


Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 721
Location: Portland OR
QBKooky wrote:
[OFF TOPIC... sorry Sad!]


No, PLEASE get more off topic! This topic is done, over, fin.

We are going around and around and just frustrateing eachother and its pointless.

The game is over, it died days ago can we please just drop it?
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The bookworm is just the larval form of the barfly

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:29 pm
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Caterpillar
Unfictologist


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 1887
Location: cem's otherbody
Wolf wrote:
As somebody pointed out earlier (I think it was Steve), if the copyright holder has a problem with the way their properties/characters/whatever are being portrayed, they will find a way to let the violator know.

If nobody BTS at LX has been given such a notice, that's their business and the rest of us should be content to carry on--and play, or ignore, LX as we choose. Which is what I'd say about any other game.

I totally agree, not for me to watch Microsoft's back.....I've got enough work of my own. (Unless of course they decided to pay me handsomely to do it Wink )

vector wrote:
Puppies....Kittens....Rainbows......Bunnies with pancakes on head... Long distance sticky....Flowers...

And I agree with this even more....

(But WTH's a "Long Distance Sticky"? Or are they "Long Distance Sticky Flowers"?)
Shocked

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:10 pm
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GuyP
Unfettered


Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK

 		Hang on, I thought forensics was like fingerprints / corpses / bulletholes. CSI type stuff? Or is storytelling just a way to chill out at the end of a hard day of working out if someone was strangled then stabbed or stabbed then strangled?

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:20 pm
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