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[HALO2] - Legislation on sales of video games to minors GDC
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INCyr
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water10 wrote:
Oh, I know nobody is proposing anything like that! But my point is the tools are already in place! The rating system is there! Now does it work? Well, clearly all the GTA discussions indicates that a lot of people don't believe it works and they want a tighter system! I believe the current system is enough, even though I agree it does not work very well! But I think it's not the system problem! The system is there to serve as a guide, if parents don't use it or don't care, well it's their problem! People should look for solutions on other areas, like being better parents, and stop putting the blame on the government and game makers.


I'm not sure people are putting the blame on the government and game makers. I do think they're looking for the government to help them deal with the situation.

Yes, I believe it should be a parents job to supervise their kid, and determine what is appropriate for them. However, when I was in HS, which wasn't that long ago, I got out of school before my parents got home from work. That gave me time to do things like go shopping at the mall. Had i wanted to pick up a game that my parents felt wasn't appropriate for me, I could have done it, and they never would have known. Granted, once it's in the house, it could have been harder to play, but given that I was living with my mom, and she had little/no idea about video games, I could have told her anything and she would have believed it. It's not that she was a bad parent (she was a great parent), it's that she wasn't, and has never been, technologically inclined.

I see this as people looking for some additional help on the other end to help them with their kids. There's nothign wrong with asking for help when you don't know anything about the situation with which you are faced, and that's exactly what I see this situation being. I'm all for a stronger legal system to enforce video game sales to minors.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:02 am
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INCyr
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 		Interesting set of articles that are just beginning, looking at this topic.

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/tech/gamecore/main500397.shtml

The columnist looks to be getting a whole lot of responses over the next <unknown time period> from both sides of the debate. It should be interesting to see what everyone says.

Edit:

This is an interesting response to Jack Thompson's interview.

http://cathodetan.blogspot.com/2005/03/quotes-from-jack-thompson.html
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:54 am
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weephun
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 		Nice post by bungie about this story.

My favorite quote:
Claude Errera wrote:
Parents are responsible for what their kids play, and for how they interpret what they play. Blaming society is a cop-out.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:19 pm
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ubercado
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 		Claude took the words right out of my mouth. What he said in that article, in my opinion, hits the nail on the head. I mean if more parents took the initiative and looked long and hard at what their kids were playing or wanting to play, I have a feeling that most of them would be astounded.

Don't get me wrong here. I am a gamer (for better or worse). I think that there are some great games out there. But, most of the games out there I would not let my kids (if I had any) play in my house. I can not stop them from going over to Little Jimmy's house to play them but, I can try to rasie them them to (hopefully) respect my wishes and explain to them why i belive the way I do.

For example, I have bought and played almost all the Leisure Suit Larry games. I find them funny and entertaining. Would I buy or allow my kids to play them? No. At least not until they have reached a certain age. Or how about Grant Theft Auto? I have played them and enjoyed them. Would I let my pre-teen child play them? No. I belive that certain game SHOULD be kept out of my kids hand and PC's and /or console game type unit until I, the parent, say that it is okay and I belive that my child is mature enough to play them.

Sorry about the long response but, sometimes you need to get things off your chest.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:03 pm
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Clayfoot
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 		So, if I can't (apparently) count on parents to restrict their children from playing Halo 2, why don't I have some way to take the iniative? If I was in the same room with these children in real life, I could decline to play with them just by seeing how young they were. XBox Live's voice masking is actually designed to thwart what little context I have to determine age.

I've already dropped some kids from my friends list, because I could tell without a doubt that they were way under 17. That's too bad, because there are other (non-M-rated) games that I would be willing to play with them on XBox Live. I just have no other way to filter them from my Halo 2 games. That doesn't even begin to address the matchmade games where kids appear. I have dropped out of some matches where it was obvious that I was playing with kids.

I think Microsoft, Bungie, and XBox don't care whether kids play mature games online. Strike that: I think the gaming companies want to have kids playing mature games. They depend on it, so much so that they will stack the deck in favor of minors playing mature games. I'm left to decide whether to play Halo 2 on XBox Live and accept that sometimes I'll end up unwittingly playing with children, or just cancel my XBox Live account outright.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:08 pm
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weephun
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 		So Clayfoot, do you leave the theatre if there are under 17 year olds watching an R-rated movie with you? Or under 13 year old in a PG-13? Do you expect the theatre to notify you if either of these conditions exist?

While I appreciate the idea of trying not to play with children, for me it falls under the same argument as government restriction. It's not the governments job nor yours to decide if these kids play/watch these things. That is the job of their parents.

It's great that the government or you or others try to set and publish standards by which parents can decide if they want their children being a part of something or not. It's also really nice that stores try to help enforce these standards. But if the parents have allowed (through decision or apathy) their child into the theatre/game/whatever where you happen to be, that is their problem, not yours.

I personally don't have anyone under 17 (that I know of) on my friends list. I figure that's the small part that I can do to help enforce the rating system. As far as matchmaking goes though, I think there's really nothing I can or should do to try and keep kids from playing with me. I'd love to speak with most of their parents, and I'm VERY active with my feedback (both good and bad), but in the end, their parents let them on there, it's not my job to try to get them off.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:25 pm
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Clayfoot
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weephun wrote:
So Clayfoot, do you leave the theatre if there are under 17 year olds watching an R-rated movie with you? Or under 13 year old in a PG-13? Do you expect the theatre to notify you if either of these conditions exist?
No. I'm not participating or contributing, so I don't take a great interest. I might bring it to the theater's attention if a blatantly underaged child was in an inappropriate show without their guardian. However, I would decline to allow a child to watch an inappropriately-rated movie in my home, even if the child brought the movie along and had their parents' permission.
weephun wrote:
While I appreciate the idea of trying not to play with children, for me it falls under the same argument as government restriction. It's not the governments job nor yours to decide if these kids play/watch these things. That is the job of their parents.
Agreed. However, there are certain times and activities where I can do my part as a responsible adult. For example, no child is allowed to smoke or to drink in my house, whether they have their parents' permission or not. Likewise, I would not drink or smoke with a child in public, regardless of their parent's permission.
So, pick an activity that you feel is unacceptable for any child: smoking, drinking, sex, drugs, or whatever. Think of something really abhorrent. Would you participate in that activity with a child, if they had their parents' permission? Translate that feeling to playing violent video games with children, and that's how I feel about it. As a responsible adult, I should at least be willing and able to do my part.
weephun wrote:
It's great that the government or you or others try to set and publish standards by which parents can decide if they want their children being a part of something or not. It's also really nice that stores try to help enforce these standards. But if the parents have allowed (through decision or apathy) their child into the theatre/game/whatever where you happen to be, that is their problem, not yours.
I disagree. As a Libertarian, I believe in individual liberty, but I also believe in individual responsibility. I defend a parent's right to let their children play violent video games, but I assert my right and my responsibility not to play with said children. I don't understand why you would expect me to abdicate this responsibility.
weephun wrote:
I personally don't have anyone under 17 (that I know of) on my friends list. I figure that's the small part that I can do to help enforce the rating system. As far as matchmaking goes though, I think there's really nothing I can or should do to try and keep kids from playing with me. I'd love to speak with most of their parents, and I'm VERY active with my feedback (both good and bad), but in the end, their parents let them on there, it's not my job to try to get them off.
I don't mind having underage kids on my friends list; there are other XBox Live games that are rated E. I can always decline to join a Halo 2 party with underage players. What I can't do is decline to join a game with underage players in a matchmade game. That's a problem. Right now, it's only Halo 2. In the next version of the XBox, all games are required to be XBox Live enabled. That includes the AO-rated (adults only) games, which means that children will have access to those, too. Shouldn't I as an adult have the means in XBox Live to play those games responsibly? That's all I'm asking of XBox Live: Give me the means to do the right thing, the same as I would if it were in real life.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:44 pm
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weephun
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Clayfoot wrote:
No. I'm not participating or contributing, so I don't take a great interest.
Not true. By paying the fee to enter the theatre you are directly contribuiting to the making of the movie and to the theatre's ability to show the movie to whatever underage people happen to be there. Halo2 on Live provides a more direct participation yes, but as long as you are not adding to the language problem, then all of the gore etc for which the game was rated M is already there, put there by the developers, just as what is in the movie to get it rated R is put there by the producers.

OK, true, I agree that I would not allow any child to participate in said activities in my house, even with parental permission or not.

I think the problem comes in this:
You do have the right and responsibility not to play with underage children, but at the same time, they have the right to personal privacy which precludes Microsoft from publishing their ages on Live. And along with that the right that their parents have to allow them to play these games if they so choose. So you've got your right to not encourage the playing of M rated games by children vs. the rights of personal privacy and parental guardianship. I'm pretty sure which ones will win. Wink

You can disallow a child from participating in activities in your house based just on your judgment because it is your private property. I don't think the same set of rules can apply to internet gaming. Just as you couldn't walk into a bar and kick somebody out because you thought they looked underage and probably got passed the management with a fake ID, you can't disallow these kids from playing on live. You can stop frequenting said bar to show your protest, which is what seems most akin to what you are thinking of doing in not playing on live anymore, or you can complain to the management and see if they will do anything about it.

I completely agree with you that it would be nice to have some way to judge the age of a player beyond the sound of their voice and perceived maturity so that you could be more responsible about your decisions, I just don't see any way that Microsoft could give you that information without violating the privacy of the player and the rights of their parents.
Clayfoot wrote:
That's all I'm asking of XBox Live: Give me the means to do the right thing, the same as I would if it were in real life.

They already do all they currently can by requiring a valid credit card in order to activate a Live account (which ensures some degree of parental guardianship). And with the XBOX next it looks like they are trying to do more by providing a "gamer card" for each player (see XBOX next discussion thread), which will include a photo of the player. This photo would in effect provide you the same amount of decision making ability you have about a persons age in real life w/out asking for their ID. So with XBOX next you'll ideally be able to make the same decision about whether or not to play a game with someone as you would have if that person were walking into your house.

To tell you the truth, my first impression of the "gamer card" idea was somewhat negative. Reason being = privacy concerns. But I guess as long as Microsoft isn't blatently giving direct information about me out to the public, it will be OK.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:30 pm
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Clayfoot
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weephun wrote:
So you've got your right to not encourage the playing of M rated games by children vs. the rights of personal privacy and parental guardianship.
That is an excellent point. The privacy issue only really comes into play for children under 13 in the COPPA, but the principle is enough to scare off many service providers.
weephun wrote:
Just as you couldn't walk into a bar and kick somebody out because you thought they looked underage and probably got passed the management with a fake ID, you can't disallow these kids from playing on live.
Actually, the laws permitting citizen's arrest would allow me to arrest the minors and whoever let them in --provided I'm big enough to do it. If it were actually illegal for children to play M-rated games on XBox Live, I could make a citzen's arrest, if I could find them. (Semi) funny story: I know someone that arrested a bunch of teenagers that were using drugs in a house at the end of his block. He wouldn't let the police take them into custody until he had searched them for evidence, since he wasn't bound by the same rules as sworn officers of the law.
weephun wrote:
I completely agree with you that it would be nice to have some way to judge the age of a player beyond the sound of their voice and perceived maturity so that you could be more responsible about your decisions, I just don't see any way that Microsoft could give you that information without violating the privacy of the player and the rights of their parents.
I fear that Microsoft and other providers will have to endure the burden of regulation, if they don't find a way to bring the situation under control. I suspect there is a reasonable solution out there. For example, Siemens has introduced a finger scanner that makes a good estimate of how old someone is. With that connected into XBox Live, there could be an effective technical filter that prevents me from ever seeing minors online in M-rated games. It would even work if a minor was using someone else's gamertag.
weephun wrote:
Clayfoot wrote:
That's all I'm asking of XBox Live: Give me the means to do the right thing, the same as I would if it were in real life.
They already do all they currently can by requiring a valid credit card in order to activate a Live account (which ensures some degree of parental guardianship).
True, but the terms of service are so vague that XBox Live could always claim a parent gave their child de facto permission to play.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/termsofuse.htm
Quote:
Xbox Live is not intended for use by children under the age of 13. Subject to the foregoing, you represent that you are the parent or legal guardian of each minor that you allow to use your subscription. You acknowledge that you are aware that some features of Xbox Live may contain or expose users to material that is unsuitable for minors, and you agree to supervise usage by minors whom you permit to use Xbox Live. Using the Account Settings in the Xbox Dashboard, you may, among other things, prevent any user of your subscription from making additional purchases, and prevent any user from having access to voice chat, which will eliminate the ability of such user to communicate with other users. You remain responsible for any material to which a user of your subscription either gains or is denied access as a result of your use or non-use of the Account Settings.
weephun wrote:
And with the XBOX next it looks like they are trying to do more by providing a "gamer card" for each player, which will include a photo of the player. This photo would in effect provide you the same amount of decision making ability you have about a person's age in real life w/out asking for their ID. So with XBOX next you'll ideally be able to make the same decision about whether or not to play a game with someone as you would have if that person were walking into your house.
That's encouraging, and it's probably the most I can expect from a service that features interviews with teenagers about playing Halo 2 on XBox Live.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:38 pm
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thunderclap8
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 		Heh today's Foxtrot might be of interest:

http://www.ucomics.com/foxtrot/2005/03/12/

(The 'Momvo' referred to there was a Tivo-type device that let the characters' mother control her children's TV viewing)
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:14 am
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Clayfoot
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:49 pm
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SuperJerms
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 		You damn kids and your cursed video trash get off my lawn!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:57 pm
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INCyr
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Clayfoot wrote:
So, if I can't (apparently) count on parents to restrict their children from playing Halo 2, why don't I have some way to take the iniative? If I was in the same room with these children in real life, I could decline to play with them just by seeing how young they were. XBox Live's voice masking is actually designed to thwart what little context I have to determine age.


I guess my point of view is this: What difference does it make if you drop out of XBL? It seems to me it doesn't really accomplish anything at all. Kids will still be playing Halo2, and you won't have the pleasure of our company online anymore.

I understand your point about allowing kids to play Halo2, but it seems to me it's just one of thsoe things that you can't do much about, except to police your own kids. It's not against the law for them to play it, as the ESRB is not legally enforcable (as far as I can tell), and the only age restriction XBL has is they have to be 13 or older. So there's really no legal action that can be taken. YOu couldn't even make a citizen's arrest if you happened upon a 15 year-old LAN party playing Halo2 online.

Even if you choose not to play with them in a game, they'll still be able to get games, and if anything, they have a better chance of being exposed to inappropriate behavior than if they played with us.

I guess I just dont' see the point of quitting XBL because of this issue.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:45 am
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