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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Perplex City » PXC: Project Syzygy Pre-Game
If *I* were a PM...
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Dorkmaster
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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firefox wrote:
i would prefer a cube = old yeller ending.... Rolling Eyes


So wait... do I aim the rifle at the cube, or at Sente? I'm confused... Rolling Eyes


*DM admits to crying every time he saw the end of Old Yeller

(struggling with whether I should have 'spoilered' the post or not...)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:55 pm
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Centipede
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Sente, then take the cube for your own nefarious purposes.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:36 pm
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Hyperion
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Centipede wrote:
Sente, then take the cube for your own nefarious purposes.


Yes, because we all know that the cube is only the best martini mixer in the known universes. It also does milkshakes.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:42 pm
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Hyperion
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Bruce, I'm aware that there were a lot of things to do within ILB other then axon hunting. Transcripts, SPEC about the audio clippings, putting them together, the ILB site itself with hidden whatchamacallits, etc.

I personally went and got one of the DVD's they were handing out, just because there was one point about 20 minutes from my house.

I liked ILB just because it opened up ARG's to a whole new crowd. Personally, I think this is one of the better mediums for gaming out there, and I wish more people could and would get involved.

When I mention an ARG to a group of friends, I want them all to say, "Oh, an ARG! I heard about those! How cool!"

And in ILB, sure, the villain did win, but did we feel like it did? I didn't, personally. Especially with the last audio clip, Melissa saying goodbye, got me all teary and spunge-like inside. Didn't feel like a villain triumphing to me.

What I meant about "the villain winning" is that sometimes, not everything comes up roses. Leave the ending open a little bit, add some more speculation and mystery to the story. I think of Final Fantasy VII, where we really have no idea what happened. Sure, the good guys won, but did everything turn out for the better? We have no idea.

Blur the lines a little bit. There doesn't need to be a set protagonist and antagonist. "The villain is the hero of his own story," is something I've always reminded myself when writing anything of my own, and I try to stay true to that by making sure that my reader/audience understands that while we may think he is doing evil, he might actually be working toward a greater good then we can understand.

The plot doesn't have to end in a pretty little package with bows and flowers and all those good times. I suppose what I'm looking for is a true Shakespearian tragedy in an ARG. Now that would really be something.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:54 pm
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thebruce
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nuduo wrote:
And in ILB, sure, the villain did win, but did we feel like it did? I didn't, personally. Especially with the last audio clip, Melissa saying goodbye, got me all teary and spunge-like inside. Didn't feel like a villain triumphing to me.

I didn't first make that point Razz ILB wasn't a good-win-all or bad-win-all... this is the point you're trying to make.

Quote:
What I meant about "the villain winning" is that sometimes, not everything comes up roses. Leave the ending open a little bit, add some more speculation and mystery to the story. I think of Final Fantasy VII, where we really have no idea what happened. Sure, the good guys won, but did everything turn out for the better? We have no idea.

Well, in FF7 then there was still good to come out of it... you're not looking for an ARG where 'the villain wins', you're looking for an arg that isn't 'happily ever after' - there's a difference... the latter plot-ending is very very common... I'd actually believe that there's as much if not more in the area of tragic endings (some aspect of good to come out of the story even if the 'hero' doesn't win, per se) than perfect endings... people are tired of the everyone-wins kind of ending. Just as you say, it's too predictable.
"Oh look, the hero is fighting the bad guy again, all his henchmen are dead, and there are 15 minutes left in the movie... Rolling Eyes "
That only works in shallow big-budget action big-explosion action movies these days where you're not expecting an intelligent, memorable conclusion Razz

What you're looking for are ARGs like ILB where there's a tragedy AS the ending. But, there's still some good that comes out of the story or plot as a whole. It's bad formula and unappealing to human nature (generally) the other way. *shrug* but hey, if you only want bad to come out of a story, that's your opinion, and I'm sure you're not alone. But most of the world may not think like that...

I'd challenge you to make an arg or story or movie that only ends negatively Smile.

Remember that episode of Friends where Phoebe went on a mission to find a self-less good deed? Laughing same kind of thing. She found it wasn't possible (well, as much as a sitcom would conclude with). More than likely any plot you could find that ends negatively will still have a lesson to be learned, or something good somewhere that the main purpose of the plot is for.

Then again I may be totally off my rocker and I'm missing out on a whole bunch of widely accepted and popular 100% negative ending stories/games/movies... if so, then I digress... still, an interesting topic.

Applied to the thread title... "If you were a PM..." would you write that 100% bad-guy-wins-all ARG?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:42 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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not to be a downer but it is possible

Quote:
I'd challenge you to make an arg or story or movie that only ends negatively


Did you see Million Dollar Baby?

I would add All Quiet on the Western Front and 100 Years of Solitude.

bruce, maybe it's just because my friends have this off-Broadway theater company where they produce their own shows, but I think I've seen more than a few plays that end with me feeling like there is just no hope for anyone anywhere.

Ask joebrent or bagsbee, they've seen one of the most depressing which was an adaptation of Georg Buchner's play Woyzech. As a critic wrote "the painful message was without hope only death remains." I'll give you three guesses as to which one prevails.

Of course these tragedies do make strong points about war or life's futility, but, in the context of this discussion, I would only say that it is possible to make a story that ends only negatively and that some of these stories also make profound art.

** Edit: this isn't an attempt to thread-jack but I seem to be moving way off the posted topic.. sorry.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:13 pm
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KSG
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Joined: 12 Jan 2005
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Gigantic Final Fantasy VII spoiler warning here.

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Yeah, we do, we totally know what happened. Midgar, being total wreckage, will no longer suck up mako. Shinra, being total wreckage, will no longer go elsewhere to suck up mako. Something must have survived, because Nanaki lived for another 500 years and got a family. I could go into detail about how, but my point is just that we did get a happy ending there.

That said, there were no good guys. There were three groups: Avalanche (enjoy setting off bombs that kill thousands of innocent people), ShinRa (killing the planet, and anyone who annoys them), and Sephiroth/Jenova (want, for their own reasons, to wipe out humanity). So the good guys couldn't really win anyway. Mako itself was the only good guy.


Now, to pretend to be on-topic, I'll work this back into the more general discussion of endings and ARGs. This was a good example of how you don't even need good guys, as long as you have someone to identify with. If Sente and the Academy and the thieves and Fran and everyone else turn out to be evil, but something really inspiring happens because of the cube, we can walk away feeling happy about it all. On the other hand, we could lose the cube, the Academy could crumble under the disaster, Perplex City itself could benefit in some vague way. Then we'd have a bad ending, but still something to feel good about. Just as long as whatever happens makes sense.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:06 am
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firefox
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dont forget the movie.. Final Fantasy: Advent Children which is ment to be coming out for ages and ages aahh fu square! that basically will tie up any loose ends, not that there's many, and ps omgwoot it looks good.

as to the deeper meaning of final fantasy- its an immersive game with a fantastic storyline. maybe there were no 'good guys' per say, but they were all cool.

as to how the arg will evolve- simply put for the future, more thrills, more explosions, more choice, more fanboys. its inevitable that such a great and compelling idea will flourish into a massive world market. for those bitter cynics like me (only on mondays) this means it wont be our little secret anymore. heck it wasn't 'our' little secret to begin with but yours the hardcore players from day 1, i got in on the 3rd floor, this baby is going to the top Cool

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:54 am
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KSG
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No! Not Advent Children! I refuse to see that for several reasons, the most relevant of which is the loose ends thing. You know why we're talking about FF7 after eight years? Because all the major plot stuff was concluded, but there's still room for discussion. Now they're going to drop a bunch of non-anime versions of the characters on us, and have them put an end to years of entertaining discussions? Why? What did I ever do to them?

As to how ARG will evolve...well, let's just say that I expect the next webcam to be indoors.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:00 am
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thebruce
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Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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Re: not to be a downer but it is possible

rose wrote:
Did you see Million Dollar Baby?

Nope, but it looked interesting, maybe sometime in the future Wink

Quote:
I would add All Quiet on the Western Front and 100 Years of Solitude.
bruce, maybe it's just because my friends have this off-Broadway theater company where they produce their own shows, but I think I've seen more than a few plays that end with me feeling like there is just no hope for anyone anywhere.

All Quiet I saw years ago in highschool... vague memories. But my feeling from the movie wasn't all bad. I guess really in this kind of situation it's a matter of perspective. Any movie about war, depending on who's watching, will already have a presupposed goal - to show that war is bad, or in the least, to show how the effects of war are something to be disgusted by or feared, reflecting on war itself - ie, in most cases, end war. So you could look at it is hopelessness, ie the idea that we can do nothing and this is the way things will always be, so no need to try to change things. Or, that there is hope, that the movie sparks something in you to have more of a desire to try to put an end to the issue...

I think grey areas like that aren't in question - the moral, though the plot ends negatively, is a positive one (again, subjectively). Whereas once again, where the bad guy wins and there is no moral or anything positive to take away, I would guess is quite rare. Not non-existent, of course, because some (as we can see in these forums) do appreciate that kind of story Smile

Either way, dunno where this is all going, but, well, to stay on topic, if I were a PM, I would never end a story predictably good-wins-all, and never entirely bad-wins-all... but somewhere in the middle, where unpredictability reigns, where the unexpected turn of events keeps you on your feet and the twists keep you guessing what will happen next... but then I'm not that good of a writer, so I won't be PMing (writing) an ARG any time soon... Confused

Quote:
...some of these stories also make profound art.

I wasn't going to say anything about art until someone else did first... Razz now you've gotta define art
*ducks and runs for cover*
good thing that thread's gone down in history too Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:46 am
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beano³
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...damn the work...hurrah London and the 18hours of running round being sat on bus and getting sore knees...

-<joke>porn</joke>

-Will just set standards that other ARG's will have to live upto if they want to do something as profound

-bringing in elements new to the genre, such as player interaction / involvement

-Helping developing technologies come forward. Such as encrypted SMS messages Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:45 pm
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