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it's an alternate REALITY!
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vpisteve
Asshatministrator


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

 		OK sure, let me rephrase a little. Targeting the community could be ok, as long as it's still accessible to a larger audience, in terms of gameplay, content and quality.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:39 pm
Last edited by vpisteve on Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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vpisteve wrote:
OK sure, let me rephrase a little. Targeting the community could be ok, as long as it's still accessible to a larger audience, in terms of both gameplay, content and quality.


Okay, that I agree with. *Accessibility* to the world is a fair criterion. *Participation* by the world is not, IMANSHO.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:44 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

 		damn you all! I have so much work to do and really should not be getting involved until, like a good little grad student, my papers are written and projects are turned in. But you had to go and hit on a word that I just cannot ignore...

Accessibility

I think that is one of the largest issues that I have with communication-based games being called ARGs. They are not accessible to all. Heck, they aren't even accessible to all in the ARG community. And then, when the people behind them don't feel as if they are getting enough hits or players, they cry or pout or pull their games or whatnot (not all do, I know I'm generalizing here). How in the heck can you expect to compete with games that are making themselves accessible? How in the heck can you expect to gather a larger player base when the majority of people are unable to or unwilling to participate in such an experience?

So many more thoughts *sigh*

- b

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:54 pm
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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imbri wrote:
damn you all!


Twisted Evil

I mean, um, sorry!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:00 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		hahahahahahahahaha, GARGLES

Dorkmaster, you rule.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:01 pm
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ScarpeGrosse
Site Admin


Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 1678
Location: The Shiny Castle in the Sky, Full of Cotton Candy and Hazelnut Lattes

 		AIM interaction:Solitaire::ARG interaction:football
-or-
AIM interaction:one social moron::ARG interaction:Frat party full of morons

AIM interactions are situations where you might be able to win or score on your own. ARG interactions are situations where your friends help you or are needed to help you score.

"score" being used loosely here in whatever dirty context you wish Wink

discuss!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:03 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		People -could- cite the payphones, but those were specifically engineered to get us to work together, with the relays and such. So, we were definitely Payphone Morons Tapping Kegs Across the Country.

Everyone, sing together now!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:16 pm
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ScarpeGrosse
Site Admin


Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 1678
Location: The Shiny Castle in the Sky, Full of Cotton Candy and Hazelnut Lattes

 		Can we hold hands while we sing?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:16 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


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ScarpeGrosse wrote:
AIM interaction:Solitaire::ARG interaction:football
-or-
AIM interaction:one social moron::ARG interaction:Frat party full of morons

AIM interactions are situations where you might be able to win or score on your own. ARG interactions are situations where your friends help you or are needed to help you score.

"score" being used loosely here in whatever dirty context you wish Wink

discuss!


All of which suggests the rather uncomfortable question of whether ARGs help people score...

I'd have to say not, judging by...

Oh, never mind, I've humiliated enough people for one week.

Seriously, ILB was all about interaction with other players for me. The lack of the same sort of feeling of community was mostly what soured me on the other ARGs I tried to play. But then, I'm an obsessively communal person. <shrug>

On the other hand, I think there *can* be a place for AIM conversations (used very sparingly). ILB worked just fine with Melissa talking to individual people, and AIM is just another form of communication (albeit one without the emotional impact of an actual voice). As far as realism goes, it is *very* realistic. People use AIM to communicate. I don't see why characters in an ARG shouldn't.

I don't think it should be ruled out completely as a tool, just kept to a minimum.

I can see the potential for very communal interactions that use AIM -- for example, someone being helped with a time-crunch-type-multi-part puzzle by people in chat while relaying the answers to a character via AIM. (Somewhat like the group of people standing around giving suggestions at the payphone.) I think that, handled right, something like that could be exciting and engaging.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:20 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

 		I absolutely agree that various forms of communication can be used effectively in ARGs. It's when they are the basis of the way in which the players interact with the world that I have an issue with it.

Phaedra wrote:
I can see the potential for very communal interactions that use AIM -- for example, someone being helped with a time-crunch-type-multi-part puzzle by people in chat while relaying the answers to a character via AIM. (Somewhat like the group of people standing around giving suggestions at the payphone.) I think that, handled right, something like that could be exciting and engaging.


ACK! horrid memories! We did that one evening in Metacortechs. For those that didn't play, at the end of the game we had several days where we were on a "real time" schedule (that word bothers me to a degree, as the characters were always in 'real time' but they didn't usually update constantly). It was a very exhausting week for the PMs, as we never had a moment of downtime to really take a look at what we were doing and the effectiveness of what we were doing. It was similarly exhausting for the players as they were lacking the downtime to come together on the forums and really work on the group tools and such. That's always the issue with 'real time' updates and why I prefer a more "formal" update schedule. Anyway, in the live update period, one of the characters (Beth) handed out her AIM username. It was EXTREMELY difficult to chat with 40 or so people at one time and, while they were incredibly understanding, I'm sure it was very frustrtating for them. Sure there was a reason for Beth to insist on chatting in that manner. However, due to the frustrations of it all, much of that reason went right out the window. It was intended to be a multipart puzzle in which different people got different clues to what was happening, but there was just so much other stuff going on that it was almost too difficult to do properly and I've always felt as if it was a failure. I don't know that I'd go the same route again. Not only did it completely take me away from the rest of the PM team during a massive crunch time, it wasn't very effective and, I think, the players could have been as engaged or even more engaged in another way. Perhaps utilizing a pretty smart chat bot or some other procedurally based process would make it easier and less frustrating for the players and PM. Though that is a risk as well.

That said, I think that the euchre games in Lockjaw worked well. Background: two characters met weekly in an online euchre game and, as the network was so tight at work, it was safer for the one character to hint at things in the euchre chat than it was to email. The euchre games allowed for a group chat with some more individual player/character interaction in the form of gameplay. It made sense within the storyline and the risk wasn't as great as it would have been in a large open chat (more control by the PMs is always good, from a PM standpoint). With the two characters in there, it was about their communication with each other and the players knew that... yet they were also involved and able to communicate both which each other and with the characters. It also allowed me to get my weekly euchre fix which kept me sane throughout the live run of the game Smile They were still difficult and had their challenges, but overall worked pretty well. Much better than the AIM chats in Metacortechs.

- b

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:49 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
imbri wrote:
Anyway, in the live update period, one of the characters (Beth) handed out her AIM username. It was EXTREMELY difficult to chat with 40 or so people at one time and, while they were incredibly understanding, I'm sure it was very frustrtating for them. Sure there was a reason for Beth to insist on chatting in that manner. However, due to the frustrations of it all, much of that reason went right out the window. I don't know that I'd go the same route again. Perhaps utilizing a pretty smart chat bot or some other procedurally based process would make it easier and less frustrating for the players and PM.


Yikes.

I wouldn't even *try* that. (Look at me, all talking like I know! Rolling Eyes ) I was thinking more that one player could gain the trust of a character that previously hadn't really been interacting that much (by doing something for that character) and so would be talking to ONE individual while others helped him/her out with what to say/do, and hopefully helped him/her convince the character to communicate with others (but not through AIM -- probably through email or a website or whatever).

I can't even imagine trying to talk with EVERYONE on AIM. How did you survive?!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:56 pm
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Ozy_y2k
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 460
Location: Carmel, Indiana
Phaedra wrote:
I wouldn't even *try* that. (Look at me, all talking like I know! Rolling Eyes ) I was thinking more that one player could gain the trust of a character that previously hadn't really been interacting that much (by doing something for that character) and so would be talking to ONE individual while others helped him/her out with what to say/do, and hopefully helped him/her convince the character to communicate with others (but not through AIM -- probably through email or a website or whatever).


Yeah but then you run into the "everybody wants to be that one gatekeeper character" problem. For many of the people lurking in chat, anything less than DIRECT interaction with ingame characters is somehow less satisfying. Dunno why.

Phaedra wrote:
I can't even imagine trying to talk with EVERYONE on AIM. How did you survive?!


It helps that Brooke is somehow capable of subsisting on something like 36 minutes of sleep a day. Smile

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:13 pm
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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Location: Here, obviously
Ozy_y2k wrote:
Yeah but then you run into the "everybody wants to be that one gatekeeper character" problem. For many of the people lurking in chat, anything less than DIRECT interaction with ingame characters is somehow less satisfying. Dunno why.


As someone who is not a PM, I find this suggestion that one MUST give the players what they want (and when they want it) somewhat disturbing.

An ARG is sort of like a striptease, right?

Shocked

OMG I can't believe I just used that metaphor. And yet, it's the best one I can think of, so I will leave it.

Clearly, despite my best efforts, the discussion about belly dance going on on my blog is pulling my mind into the gutter. <sigh> Alas.

I dunno, going on Elan's "randomly placed cheese" theory, I'd think randomly allowing a single player to have some sort of Unique Contact Experience would *generate* rather than reduce intensity, providing it was very brief and that you repeated it (not the same scenario, but in the one-on-one aspect) with a few other random players.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:21 pm
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Ozy_y2k
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 460
Location: Carmel, Indiana
Phaedra wrote:

As someone who is not a PM, I find this suggestion that one MUST give the players what they want (and when they want it) somewhat disturbing.


Oh I don't think you SHOULD always coddle your players. I was merely identifying the problem. I think we all take it as a given at this point that, no matter WHAT you do as a PM, SOMEbody's gonna be pissed off and arguing that you shoulda done it differently, or they coulda done it better. Which is usually an opinion that is not worth the electrons it's imprinted on.

Phaedra wrote:
Clearly, despite my best efforts, the discussion about belly dance going on on my blog is pulling my mind into the gutter. <sigh> Alas.


Yeah, *good*. It'd do you good to visit the gutter every once in a while from the ivory tower. It's cozier down here, and usually more fun.

Phaedra wrote:
I dunno, going on Elan's "randomly placed cheese" theory, I'd think randomly allowing a single player to have some sort of Unique Contact Experience would *generate* rather than reduce intensity, providing it was very brief and that you repeated it (not the same scenario, but in the one-on-one aspect) with a few other random players.


That second part is the key. And it's what ILB and other successful games did well, I think. That way, it doesn't feel as "exclusionary" as some people object to purely AIM-based games as being. Because, let's face it, regardless of whether or not you have other players "helping out" in the background, direct player-to-character interaction is inherently personal, and thus inherently exclusionary. And that doesn't make it inherently BAD, but it does mean you as a PM have to be more sensitive to not shutting the rest of your potentially loyal player base out, just because they haven't been invited to one particular party.

Whatever else an ARG may or may not "be", it still IS, last time I checked, a collective enterprise.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:30 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

 		Are we actually being of any interest to anyone outside our Pod, or are we just amusing ourselves again?

I do worry about these things.

Okay, yeah, actually not so much. They'll tell us to shut up when we get overly annoying, right?

Ozy_y2k wrote:
Oh I don't think you SHOULD always coddle your players. I was merely identifying the problem. I think we all take it as a given at this point that, no matter WHAT you do as a PM, SOMEbody's gonna be pissed off and arguing that you shoulda done it differently, or they coulda done it better. Which is usually an opinion that is not worth the electrons it's imprinted on.


<nods>

<thinks back to "OMG SPELLCHECK ALREADY" email to one PM, and LJ post about another>

Ozy_y2k wrote:
Yeah, *good*. It'd do you good to visit the gutter every once in a while from the ivory tower. It's cozier down here, and usually more fun.


Heh. Says you. I did live in a dorm at a very large public university, y'know. I've SEEN the gutter. And "cozy" wasn't the first word that came to mind. Razz

Ozy_y2k wrote:
And that doesn't make it inherently BAD, but it does mean you as a PM have to be more sensitive to not shutting the rest of your potentially loyal player base out, just because they haven't been invited to one particular party.

Whatever else an ARG may or may not "be", it still IS, last time I checked, a collective enterprise.


Hmm. Lack of sensitivity could definitely be a problem -- especially with a huge player base.

Maybe if you made sure to do it *simultaneously* with other stuff? Divert some of the focus?

Just thinking out loud here, because I'm tired of trying to control the brains of HBO executives from afar.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:40 pm
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