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it's an alternate REALITY!
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Nightmare Tony
Entrenched

Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 824
Location: Meadowbrook

You know, I do recall there is some buggy whip industries back east....

but seriously,

OK sure, let me rephrase a little. Targeting the community could be ok, as long as it's still accessible to a larger audience, in terms of gameplay, content and quality.

So that means that every garage band should book the Staples Center, hoping that the world will come storming in the door?


AIM is merely a new rabbithole tool right now, a fad which will pass or become simply a new tool. Just because a game sends you something in snail mail does NOT mean its a huge game in the making.

The interaction that AIM offers in chat rooms and IRC is opening up a nice local dimension which can ALSO go global. There is no number limit to those chats as of yet.

And as one who pmed before and will pm again (neither of them being aim games, as you derisievley call them), being behind the curtain is HARD WORK. Keeping track of game progress, trends, all sorts of factors which lead the game or may affect it beyond anyone's control.

We always get new players in waves if a huge campaign brings in perople who never played before, are not regulars. You can become seriously jaded which is what is being shown in this thread.

One thing nice on the many levels and styles, everyone expressed themselves. an ARG is an expression of art.

Not every artist will be shown at the Louvre.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:52 pm
Last edited by Nightmare Tony on Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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yanka
Fickle


Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 1214
Location: undesirable

vpisteve wrote:
Hmm, this brings up an important point to me, one that I've really not been able to quantify until now: Achieving a large player-base for a grassroots project has been done, and it can and should be done, or at least attempted, every time. This whole idea of "I'll do a grassroots game, and I'll just aim it at the ARG Community to pull my players from," is bogus, imho. Either aim it at a worldwide audience or don't do it at all. I mean otherwise, what's the point? We then become a little cadre of people on the internet who put on games for our own enjoyment (*shudder*).

Hm, I'm gonna agree with Steve here (screw amendments Wink )

Let me begin by saying that I'm starting to lose track of what we're arguing here... I hope that it's not "quality of small games vs. quality of large games", because, although I happen to have an opinion, I doubt I'll ever voice it (since I don't think it'd be reasonable for me to discuss the quality of a game I never participated in).

Are we, then, arguing "What do smaller, community-targeted games bring to the community?" or "What do smaller, community-targeted games bring to the genre?" Because those are, really, two very, VERY different arguments.

Obviously the community-targeted games DO bring something to the community - I mean, community members are playing them, right? In light of that, I think that arguing whether or not they should continue being made is completely moot - they will continue being made, as long as there is demand for them, and that's that. I would also venture to guess that many, many members of the community will remain being unaffected by most of them - and please, please understand that I'm not saying this because I'm a snob, or I'm out to hurt someone's feelings - I am just being pragmatic.

I think that what Steve and imbri are concerned with, though, is "What do these games bring to the genre?" Both of them are major promoters of ARGing, both of them are actively seeking ways to expand the audience, and both of them are very successful contributors to its expansion. Naturally, their goal is not (either "so much" or "at all") "to entertain the community". They want to open this kind of gaming to the world, they want the genre to thrive (as opposed to stagnate in its nice, cozy niche), they want the commercial enterprises to see these kinds of games as marketing vehicles with serious potential. I'll go out on a limb and say that if ever ARGing really does become to the gaming industry what sound became to the movie industry, it'll be largely due to the efforts of people like Steve and Brooke. What do community-targeted games contribute to this goal? Sadly, nothing (whether they have any "inspirational" potential remains to be seen).

Why is this genre so appealing to us, and why are we so sure that it will appeal to many, many people? What are our selling points? I would say that it's the experience that we have to offer: it is possible to go through 3 months of non-stop intellectual challenge; there is a kind of gaming that defies competition and "clan"ing; there does exist a kind of gaming with tremendous educational potential - where the players learn from the game itself, and from fellow players, where they are challenged to read, research, and utilize their cognitive (not just social) abilities. With that in mind, I can totally see why Steve, for example, is so concerned with gAIMes: incessant chatting with "characters" has nothing to do with the above experience. Not to mention the fact that any gAIMe, whether you like it or not, inherently limits the player base, and tremendously so. Like it or not, gAIMing has nothing positive to contribute to the GENRE - feel free to argue with me, of course, but I just don't see how I can be persuaded to think otherwise.

To reflect and extend upon imbri's point: I very much doubt that smaller, community-oriented games will ever make any large impact on the future of the genre as a whole, or on the way the world sees ARGing. Not that that's a bad thing...

Ok, I think I'll stop here before I piss too many people off Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:57 pm
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Dorkmaster
Unfictologist


Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 1328
Location: The People's Republic of Dork

Random entries here:

Phaedra wrote:
Heh. Says you. I did live in a dorm at a very large public university, y'know. I've SEEN the gutter. And "cozy" wasn't the first word that came to mind.


-- I remember some distinct "ick" experiences, personally...

-- Kudos to Yanka for being true and blunt! (even if you don't agree, there's enough pussyfootin' going on around here. hehe... pussyfooting.)

-- Krystyn, YOU rock!

-- I would not say that gAIMes (I think that's now an official term, and good for that!) are completely non-contributory, but definitely don't expand the genre.

-- Scarpe, in our next lives, we gotta hang out girl, or perhaps just join forces and drive our next selves mad and be the same person. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:05 pm
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia

imbri wrote:
That said, I think that the euchre games in Lockjaw worked well.


That they did, because they had a genuine feel to them, as far as the characters interacting with each other. Because they knew each other (and not any of us players who happened to be in the same social room at the time), they were able to drop subtle hints to each other, as many friends often do online. This was a very realistic way for the two characters to interact in a chat environment, while all the while giving the players of the game the hints and kloos they needed to findthe next piece of the story. IMHO, the Euchre game was the best form of interaction between characters and players in the history of ARG. Well, at the very least, in my history of ARG.

This is why I'm so disillusioned by the latest swing towards the gAIMs of late -- players are being drawn into interaction (via their UF profile, etc.) rather than having to find the opportunities for interaction themselves. Labyrinth/Maze. If I was ever contacted by a complete stranger as part of an ARG, while my ARG-trained mind might play along and want to go through the motions, my gut reaction would be to reject the stranger's ramblings as they have no freakin' clue who I am, and therefore, have no reason to be contacting me.

In fact, this happened not too long ago in the #unfiction chat room. Someone/something came in and started to "run code" or something similarly out-of-the-ordinary. Then the entity/person/AI/sexbot wanted people to meet them in a separate chat room at a certain time on a certain date. This simply wasn't real to many of us who were in the room at the time, and accordingly, that attempt of interaction was ignored (I don't personally know of anyone who went to the room at any time). In short, this experience demonstrated that if the experience isn't in a genuine context, then there is no expectation for players to want to get involved.

I'm not against the IM delivery model for ARG interaction, but I am definitely not a fan of games that simply don't make sense. Many of the recent IM-based games do not make sense.

Oh, and I dig Ozy too. In fact, this message was approved by someone who knows Ozy, so you'd better believe it's of the highest quality.

Edit: Apparently, I also dig the unnecessary use of bold text. Sorry to those of you who might have bled out from the eyeholes before I applied this edit.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:13 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

jamesi, I think that's one of my fondest memories of those Euchre games:

I would play as Bruce, and Brooke would be Barbie, and you guys would be yourselves, and with the exception of oh, say, MOS SERV or someone, you would all try your damndest not to let on that you were simply eavesdropping for puzzle clues. It was an amazing and dare I say, heart-warming example of how players can work together for a common cause, and yet still remain immersed in the world they've put themselves into, in order to help preserve that world.

Brooke, I think you sell yourself short: your Beth/AIM convos with people worked out pretty well, when it all came down to it. The chaos we engendered with that whole real-time sequence WAS intense, but I think we needed it to be, no? It was endgame. Lotsa whomps. Wink

I DO think you need to show that screenshot of your AIM windows, though. THAT was pretty fricking amazing.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:21 pm
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xnbomb
Unfettered


Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 660
Location: J302B S8JDC

yanka wrote:
What are our selling points? I would say that it's the experience that we have to offer: it is possible to go through 3 months of non-stop intellectual challenge; there is a kind of gaming that defies competition and "clan"ing; there does exist a kind of gaming with tremendous educational potential - where the players learn from the game itself, and from fellow players, where they are challenged to read, research, and utilize their cognitive (not just social) abilities.

Yanka, you have just articulated some notions that I have been trying to figure out how to express for ages. Thank you so much, that's a tremendous weight off my chest. Now ... I just need to remember how you put that so I can paraphrase it when people ask me why I find ARGs appealing.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:21 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

xnbomb, just throw some devil horns and say, "ARGS RULE!!!"


then, crack open a beer, chug it, and crush the can on your forehead.


bonus points for flexing muscles and emitting a manly, "GRRRR!"

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:24 pm
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Ozy_y2k
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 460
Location: Carmel, Indiana

OMG Krystyn.

OMG OMG OMG.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:27 pm
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vpisteve
Asshatministrator


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

krystyn wrote:
xnbomb, just throw some devil horns and say, "ARGS RULE!!!"


then, crack open a beer, chug it, and crush the can on your forehead.


bonus points for flexing muscles and emitting a manly, "GRRRR!"


Shocked

/me knew he should've turned off his webcam last night. Confused
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:28 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

Ozy_y2k wrote:
OMG Krystyn.

OMG OMG OMG.


Also:

OMGOMGOMGOMG

(Why do I have this sudden sense of deja vu?)
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World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind


PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:29 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

In COMPLETELY UNRELATED news...


Le sigh.
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World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind


PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:44 pm
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Nightmare Tony
Entrenched

Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 824
Location: Meadowbrook

Jamesi:
"I'm not against the IM delivery model for ARG interaction, but I am definitely not a fan of games that simply don't make sense. Many of the recent IM-based games do not make sense. "

the idea of an AI from the future landing and calling people on payphones doesnt make much sense either. Neither did a parallel universe Cube.




I think I now have THe perfect solution for maintaining thepurity of the gaming sport.

Ban ALL game forums and games that do not fit the narrow mold. Only allow the classic purist concept to be part of the UF forums.

Wildfire: gone
Synagoga: gone
Jibril: gone
Sarakiddo: gone
Strange Dreams: gone.


that should solve the problem right there, shouldnt it? Pretend they dont exist, and they will go away. Of course, a new term will spring up called DEATH BY ATTRITION, but that is what is being sought, isnt it?
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Nightmare Park


PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:50 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

Nightmare Tony wrote:
Jamesi:
"I'm not against the IM delivery model for ARG interaction, but I am definitely not a fan of games that simply don't make sense. Many of the recent IM-based games do not make sense. "

the idea of an AI from the future landing and calling people on payphones doesnt make much sense either. Neither did a parallel universe Cube.


Um, I think he was talking about internal consistency, not the plausibility of the storyline.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:53 pm
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NashCarey
Veteran

Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 102
Location: Nierstein, Germany

As heated as this topic has become, I had to read through it twice to make sure I hadn't posted to it. Sounds like "back in the day." lol!

I am glad to see this though! Good Job Imbri in getting the ball rolling. I don't think any of the original topics have been discussed for a while though, or even if they were discussed in the first place, making this more like an evolving chat than a "topic of dicussion."

BTW: Ozy, I agree with you bud!

Tony: I empathize.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:06 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

Nightmare Tony wrote:

Ban ALL game forums and games that do not fit the narrow mold. Only allow the classic purist concept to be part of the UF forums.


I'm sorry, but that's hyperbole.

Have you been reading the posts in this thread at all?

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:07 pm
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