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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Professional vs. Amateur Games
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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LouMac
Pimp Daddy


Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 191
Location: Rhode Island

 		Professional vs. Amateur Games
Forgive me for using the terms "professional" and "amateur", but I was at a loss for better terms. That said, I'd like to know everyone's opinion of ARGs that are commercially/professionally developed (i.e. The Beast, Push) and those that are developed by gamers themselves (i.e. Lockjaw). Although the financial backing of commercially adopted games helps infinitely in its production, I prefer the intimacy and extensive interaction with characters that an "amateur" game affords.

Spacebass and I were having this discussion recently, and it really sparked my curiosity about how other ARGers felt about it.

Thanks
Lou

PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:05 pm
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Tien_Le
Charter Member


Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 878
Location: corner of no and where

 		I like them both for different reasons. I loved Lockjaw...my favorite by far of the campaigns I've had the honor to play. It was fascinating, intriguing, sparked my imagination, completely absorbing and all around great fun. The group of people who played it are amazingly smart, funny, generous and cooperative. The PMs really knew their stuff...truly knew how the best kind of ARG should unfold and be played. And man could they write!!! Some of the most poignant, funny, intense stuff I've ever read. The down side is that I'm spoiled for life now when it comes to the homegrown variety. After you've tasted a sweet, freshly picked apple right off the tree, then anything less just isn't the same.

As for the professional brand of campaign, I wasn't fortunate enough to play the Beast, but I played Alias the first season and thoroughly enjoyed it. While nothing of a challenge for Cloudmakers, it was a great introduction into the genre for people like me who are easily overwhelmed. What it had in common with Push NV is that the story was told on film...that made the story *much* easier for me to keep up with.

I think there's a place for both and hope that the powers that be who have the money continue to find it worthwhile to find ways to challenge us within the context of commercialism (I don't mind the product placements if the writing and story are good.)

PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 1:24 pm
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Ozy_y2k
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 460
Location: Carmel, Indiana

 		I could go either way, really. I've used this analogy before, and I think it still applies, but I liken the difference (even at this embryonic stage of ARG development) between "pro" and "amateur" ARGs as equivalent to the difference between "studio" and "indie" films. You can find examples of good AND poor quality in either subgenre.

There are plenty of big studio films out there (the recent ROAD TO PERDITION, financed by Dreamworks SKG, is a classic example), which rise above the usual formulaic hackery and aspire to be genuine works of art, and I would count the Beast among similar examples on the ARG side. For every one of those, you will see plenty more examples of cynically slapped-together, "hey-lets-just-ride-the-bandwagon" examples of sloppily done but still arguably "professional" big-studio work. (As far as ARG examples of the latter, I'm not gonna take a potshot at ABC here, but let's use the recent "non-campaign" for THE RING as an indicator of something that could have been done a bit better had it not smacked as much as it did of studio shill pandering to some marketing drone's limited understanding of the "hip" ARG audience).

On the flip side, there are "good" indie ARGs, and then again there are pretentious and half-baked pieces of garbage, same way as with your typical self-financed art film. I mean, I'd pay good money to sit through something like Y TU MAMA TAMBIEN or to play something of the caliber of a Lockjaw, but not to watch some self-indulgent, incoherent piece of crap like VELVET GOLDMINE or to play a homegrown ARG that disintegrates underneath my feet because of poor PM planning after like a week or so.

O

PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 1:28 pm
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Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA

 		Re: Professional vs. Amateur Games
Personally, I think the games put on by "professional" shops are going to have the distinct advantage that this is their primary mode of employment, and thus, will be more willing to work at it 24/7. While "amateur" PMs (and I don't think this term can really apply yet...) will likely have other obligations, and likely will be split up not only by distance but also by communications lag time.

But, I don't think with dedicated PMs that either of these will be a real problem. I think the biggest problem that part-time PMs will face is the lack of a stellar writer. The reason the Beast was so good was Sean Stewart and his cabal of other writers working on the dialogue, working on the story, working on the interactions. It was the script that made the effort worthwhile.

The message I'd have to any Game Developer is that they make the story worthwhile. If you can script a good game, professional or not, then you've got something. The problem is, due to the shortage of free, good writers, you're up a creek. You can get lucky and find someone, but your best bet is hiring a pro.

Cortana.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:26 pm
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Wolf
Decorated


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 292
Quote:
It was fascinating, intriguing, sparked my imagination, completely absorbing and all around great fun. The group of people who played it are amazingly smart, funny, generous and cooperative. The PMs really knew their stuff...truly knew how the best kind of ARG should unfold and be played. And man could they write!!! Some of the most poignant, funny, intense stuff I've ever read.


On behalf of myself and the other LockJaw PMs, thank you. High praise.

Since this topic has kinda sat for a few days, let me toss something out there: If you were PMing a game and the players started complaining about how the puzzles didn't advance the story or didn't fit or that there was just too much reading to do, what would you as a PM try?

Is it possible to get players interested again once interest has died down? What would you as a player want to see to renew your interest in a campaign once the spark had died for you?

--Wolf

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 4:59 pm
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vpisteve
Asshatministrator


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

 		See, to me, that's one of the cool things about this: the ability for the PMs to react to things in real time, whether it's pacing, contact, whatever. Just the same as an actor or standup comedian plays off his/her audience, the PMs can (and should, imho) do the same as much as humanly possible.

I think it's ultra important for the PMs to keep their finger on the pulse of their audience as best as they can. After all, this is the main advantage for an author that ARGs have over just about every other medium. Use it!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 5:24 pm
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Diandra
Unfettered


Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 390

 		I think we saw a shining example of this pulse monitoring during the CTW mini-quest. It was obvious the players were all stuck at the same point. CTW responded by posting a hint to give us the tiny nudge we needed to continue on and solve the quest.

I really thought that was very cool of them! Kudos!

Dia

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 5:55 pm
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Rosscoe
Greenhorn

Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 7

 		Wolf.. what i'd say was.. throw in a glimpse at the bigger picture.

a new character.. a new website.. a puzzle something everyone can really get their teeth into and feel they've earned something out of.. whether it be learning about a character... seeing how they fit in with something
learning about a corporation or something like that.

to get people interested again you have to give them something to be interested in... and to talk about.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2003 1:01 pm
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Elijah Snow
Veteran

Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 133
Location: Cin Sity
Wolf wrote:
Since this topic has kinda sat for a few days, let me toss something out there: If you were PMing a game and the players started complaining about how the puzzles didn't advance the story or didn't fit or that there was just too much reading to do, what would you as a PM try?

Is it possible to get players interested again once interest has died down? What would you as a player want to see to renew your interest in a campaign once the spark had died for you?


The people who complain, and the people you are trying to retain aren't necessarily the same. You may change something for a small group that ticks off the masses. This has happened recently in video games where developers went to forums like this to run massive focus groups. Whether your locked in a 10 x 10 room or on the internet, you still have the same problems, namely, dominant personalities that take over and restrict others from sharing opinions. In many cases features were added that didn't appeal to the "true target", additional costs were incurred, and some players even ended up being annoyed.

No one to my knowledge has done any good analysis of the ARG field. Segmentation is one example where I think attention is sorely needed. Most ARG's are designed to have everything included to appeal to everyone, but in the end you only truly appeal to a lowest common denomenator that may or may not exist. By providing focus, you know what's important to your target audience, and you can cut costs by excluding features that don't add to their overall experience/enjoyment.

In short know, really know, your audience up front. That way they won't leave in the first place.

ES
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:23 pm
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