unforum

[White_Knight]

WK on ARGs

[krystyn]

I'm all for criticism and analysis of the genre, but when I read stuff like:

[GuyP]

Ah, time for a point-by-point rebuttal I think.

OK, like Krystyn, I think you need to name names. Actually, let me do that for you. The whole of part one is (as far as I can see) about the AWARE / Nash Carey 'incident', which as far as I understand was due to game characters posting on Unfiction, contravening the UF terms of use.

Your defence of him is, I think, somewhat justified. Yeah, it was a new idea. But a lot of games use new ideas (payphones, prizes, etc) and don't create such controversy... this is because they don't invade player communities. You can't just applaud if for subverting the form if it is, comparatively, a failure: see Smell-O-Vision or a million other failed ideas for examples.

Also, a lot of your points don't sit comfortably with one another. For instance, the following:

"GOOD FOR HIM!"... 'him' being "the man that was a leading cause of the split ." Fair observation, but you then go on to declare this split "stupid, petty, unneeded bollocks!" Bearing in mind the nature of the "innovation" you praise, it seems odd that you go on to assert that "an OOG board MUST exist; it's a necessary element" and also admit that using Unfiction for ingame purposes "flew in the face of... [UF's] ideals."

I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say with your "Sheep or Think Tank" section, apart from making a general observation about group psychology. I do agree that communities tend to lead to homogenous thinking, in this case over what a 'good' ARG constituted. To me, this is the cause of the lack of originality in most independent games, products as they are of the status quo. However, I don't think this is such a big deal when it comes to accepting new ideas. Communities are founded on shared principles, and thankfully UF is founded on the very idea of free, independent and original thought. I don't agree that differing opinions necessarily lead to disharmony.

You kind of give the impression that you've not been a PM, then go on to describe what it's like to be a PM, and then pronounce "once again you won't understand till you've been through it." Huh?

Regarding explicit content and: "you run the risk of turning your ARG into a splatter film", yeah, because gory horror films are complete commercial failures, right? Considering some frequent themes are crime, conspiracy, and murder, I'm always somewhat surprised such a clean and wholesome image is presented.

I think most of the rest of it is "fair enough / stating the obvious" but I'm not sure that you can just make blanket statements about acceptable subject matter... it's more a question of combining common sense, sensitivity and good taste, really.

[NashCarey]

380 days ago this happened.

Almost a year ago I created an Exodus of players to Immersion Unlimited for to accommodate AWARE. Did I do the wrong thing? Not in my opinion. Did I do it the wrong way? Certainly. I ask for forgiveness again.

The result is now we have 2 communities and both are growing.

Nash Carey is not going anywhere, and I don't think anyone really wants him to. Immersion Unlimited is not going anywhere, so ultimately we can all either learn to co-exist or WE (anyone not working towards co-existence--or stirring the pot) are the ones "creating the havoc."

Rose stated about "groupthink" in her blog. Does anyone else read it? No choices is not a good thing, it would be like having only Republicans, or only Democrats. Sure like minded people are going to gravitate towards each other. Let's celebrate because now there is choice in the genre instead of focusing on some of the pitfalls that the past has brought us. Sure, Space, Steve, Jamesi and I argue sometimes. But I truly don't hate any of them. I get frustrated when I don't feel they have an open mind, but that is MY shortcoming and NOT theirs. I am more reactionary and make harsh and quick judgments I later regret, but hey, growing pains and I am learning as I go, like... us all.

So, be happy we have room for difference of opinions and the fact is through different interpretation is the only way we will grow.

[PS No time to spell check or edit since I my shift just ended and I need to get home--forgive grammar, poor structure or spelling-- I will fix when I get home]

*Edit Spelling

[GuyP]

I wouldn't want you to think I was having a dig at you, Nash, I was just commenting that it was hard to see whether WK thought that the current situation was a good or bad thing, on the whole.

[imbri]

[Alzheimers]

First of all, let me say that I respect your opinions, and appreciate the amount of time it must have taken for you to compile them together. While I agree with some of your points and disagree on others based merely on personal opinion, there are a few that I think bear discussion.

1.3 Lets break up the group, yeah that's smart
vs.
1.4 Sheep or Think Tank?

The problem I see is that you're essentially arguing two different sides of the same argument. On one hand, you're questioning why two groups with two radically different ideas couldn't get along under one tent. On the other, you're questioning why everyone thinks the same way.

It really comes down to an issue of respect. Sometimes we as a community, right or wrong, cannot agree to disagree. There are many different philosophies on the tenets and structures of Alternate Reality Gaming. Some players want to observe from a distance; some want to get (literally) picked up and tossed into the fray. Those who wish to remain separated from the action would rather not be included against their will. Those who want total immersion don't want barriers to stand in their way. It's a clash of two contradictory concepts that has never been properly resolved.

The only correct course is for each of us to learn to respect one another's opinions and beliefs. It doesn't mean we need to agree. It means that we are in the very VERY early stages of what is sure to be a much vaster arena in the future. Do you think the early directors like D.W. Griffith and Sergei Eisenstein could have agreed on how to guide their hobbies into the film industry as it is today? Each early filmmaker had their own style and their own ideas, just as each PM and each player has their own. Every new movie created was filled with ideas and experiments that influenced the future generations, just as we see happening now in our own genre.

But just as we explore new frontiers, we must also recognize that our decisions have very real consequences. If antagonism rather than creativity is the motive behind a decision, then we are not doing anything but holding back the very community we are trying to advance. In other words, this art form has become bigger than any single person or idea. Hiding behind walls won't push any creative barriers, but neither will ignoring the frontier for the pleasure of blowing down straw houses.

2.1 TINAG is a guide line to player actions not a real belief.
Therefore as a general rule, there should exist an OOG area, which the characters are unaware of in which to discuss OOG topics.

If there's one thing I hate, it's rules for the sake of rules. The reason for an OOG area wasn't decided by Fiat through virtue of the genre, it's because it's what players wanted. There were no guidelines that said the Cloudmakers should create an open forum as that was the best way to congregate; there was no onus on the Beekeepers to create such a thorough and helpful Wiki system. By that token, ARGs would continue tomorrow and forever even if UF and IU suddenly dissapeared. These are all artifical elements, entirely outside the design scope of the PMs, created through the desire of players to have a place to have a way to organize and sort information.

It was a mutually recognized concept (see also above: RESPECT) that such areas would be OOG. Why? Because it was agreed on at the time that breaking such elements would destroy immersion and worse, agitate and insult the fans who had worked so hard to create these resources. But there have been occasions where such unwritten agreements were broken, and reactions ranged from wide-eyed shock to teeth-clenching rage, to back-slapping appreciation. And we continue to have a situations, even in such popular games as PerplexCity and OurColony where the PMs have chosen to ignore those unwritten rules.

We continue to follow along with their creations, and they continue to run as popular as ever. So we can see one very important point; breaking a rule doesn't necessarily ruin a game, and it won't kill the community. The publicity caused by the PC PMs media blitz has only heightened interest in our genre, and despite what purists and old timers might want to think, that's not a bad thing.

But does the lack of respect for the will of the players not come with negative consequences as well? Or community is just like any other; we rely on the old to teach the new. If the veterans of the genre are sufficiently turned off by flagrancy of a PM, then the game will struggle under it's own weight when all the new people attracted to it flounder without direction.

Can't happen? ILoveBees was the perfect example of a game that almost wasn't. The massive influx of "Newbees" was bad enough; that the game relied almost entirely on real-world events was even worse; that it had almost *no puzzles to speak of* practically killed interest for the veteran community. And yet, it survived. It flourished. Because the PMs listened to feedback, and because the veterans saw the potential and didn't give up on it. There was respect on each side, and both were better off for it. And because the new people learned from the veterans, and were able to become productive members of this community and not left to bicker in the forums like angry schoolchildren, thanks to dedicated and prudent Moderators who kept the forums orderly.

3.3 Secret hand shakes – The community behind the curtain.

Allow me to disillusion the conspiracy buffs around here. There's a very good reason for the secrecy, and it's not because PMs like being sneaky (well, maybe that's part of it, but it's not the *whole* reason). The true purpose most PMs hide their identity goes back to the whole "Respect" issue from above. PMs realize that most players don't want to know what's going on behind the curtains and want to be insulated from the daily torture that is building and running a game.

If you just sat down to eat a delicious looking steak dinner, you'd probably not want to hear how the cow had lived its entire life in a tiny box, only to have it's neck slit with a dull machette and was then hung upside down to bleed to death, then had it's carcass ran through a bandsaw to be perfectly portioned into tiny bits that was then flash-frozen, kept in a dark locker for weeks, thawed on someone's dirty kitchen counter, then placed in a greasy pan along with bits of vegetable matter that were totally immersed in dirt not a few short days before. No, you'd probably sniff the carefully crafted aroma, and concentrate on the juicy morsels that are presented before you.

It's not secrecy; it's respect. It's keeping the "game" out of the game. But that doesn't mean that's the way it will always be. I'd love to see a "Noises off!" ARG, where the game *is* the PMs trying to create an ARG for an "Alternate Reality" Audience, and the players would then become PMs to help create content for the REAL PMs to solve. Wouldn't that be a switch!

3.5 The line that shall not be crossed

This is one of those points that is difficult to argue against, and yet impossible to agree on. When Majestic was released, subjects such as terrorist threats were seen as mere phantasy. Yet after the events of 9/11 it's obvious to see why such ideas have become politically uncorrect.

I agree with you that there are things that our society finds morally unacceptable and, in good taste, should be avoided out of the respect for our community. But, for example, an ARG that features sex between unmarried adults, openly gay characters, and pagan symbolism could be considered offensive to more religious players.

As usual, the community will police itself. I just don't think that any one person should define the moral guidelines for the benefit of everyone, even if I happen to agree with them.

[NashCarey]

[addlepated]

Long ago in a galaxy at least 80 miles from here, I took a summer course in improvisational acting. We had a final performance and all the kids in the other classes in the program came to see us. After the show was over, my group of friends walked shyly up to us. "We knew you were in the acting course," they said, "But we really had no idea you could do... that!"

"That" was changing ourselves into different characters onstage, seemingly effortlessly. At one point we were the characters from Medea, and 5 minutes later we were the dead speaking from Spoon River.

Had my fellow actors and I spoken with our outside friends before the show about what we would be doing, told them our lines, and discussed the plot, they would not have been nearly as wowed as they were going in cold.

I view the secretiveness of the PM groups in the same way. When you know the mechanics behind the magic trick, it becomes rote and less exciting. I applaud PM groups staying behind the curtain. Then again, I applaud anyone crazy brave enough to PM at all!

[White_Knight]

FIRST GUYP

I didn't think it was fair to name names as it would just been seen as an attack on the person.

[GuyP]

In that case consider Alzheimers the less confrontational, more easily understood version of me - he kinda said everything I was trying to say!

Re the PM thing, the quote that gave me the impression you'd never done it was "I've been around for a while and been brainstorming since I got her(e) and even I don't think I'm ready to head my own story."

It's interesting that you decided not to name names in case it was seen as an attack. I guess the community hasn't yet reached a sufficient mass where we can seperate the critics, PMs and whoever else. Which leads to a lot of talking about things in reallllly vague terms.

[krystyn]

I was wondering why you hadn't named names because you were talking about specific incidents in this community, WK, and talking around an issue tends to exacerbate the problems you attempted to illustrate in that Word doc.

I mean, you pretty much alienated anyone who is not 'up' on the drama from being able to comprehend your writing in a meaningful way, you know? There's just pronouns, and a general feeling of 'wink wink nudge nudge' going on, and how's that going to solve anything?

[White_Knight]

True True....

GuyP read that little bit again "I've been around for a while and been brainstorming since I got her(e) and even I don't think I'm ready to head my own story." by head I mean go out and gather up my own crew with a story in mind and spearhead the effort....I never said I'm not ready to Help out with one...which I'm not of course

And looking back on it, yes krystyn, it probably would have been easier to name names. I mean I don't think Nash would have seen it as an attack...which in the end would have been the important thing. (PS Nash haven't seen you round the rooms lately...hope to catch up some time and discuss the the state of stuff)

Anyway....

[Dorkmaster]

Well I for one am ticked off. I mean, if you're going to name names, at least drop mine in once in a while... How am I supposed to become a web celebrity without some dirty laundry and stuff... sheeesh... I'm just going to have to do this myself... I'll write a book entitled "Why Dorkmaster Sucks SOOOO Bad: Revenge of the Sith, Part Deux"

For real, though, the only thing that I see that Nash did wrong was break the intent of the TOS. He did it not to tick people off, but to try to be inventive. However, he did so in a bad way (as he's stated, and apologized for...) So um... yeah. Point is, we're done with all this. IU exists for those who want that type of experience, and UF exists for those who want this type of experience. Done and Done. (Now, on to world hunger.)