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[ARG General] The Future of Alternate Reality Gaming
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cerulean
Boot

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 11

 		Re: Newbies.
It's difficult to get into an ARG if you haven't been playing it right from the start. It's even more difficult for those who have never played an ARG before (eg those who will start discovering PPC via the cards). What would be helpful would be a regularly updated walkthrough aimed at newbies. This would include how to get started as well as how to approach the puzzzles. So instead of saying "I found a hidden comment in the source, "55623912382193" which translates to the password for the stegged file", it would explain in detail how to go about how to solve each puzzle, with constant reference to other player tutorials and resources. After a week of using the guide, most people would be self-sufficient enough to fly on their own. The trail could be a couple of days behind the game so that it didn't spoil anything.

Just looking out for the little people.


Re: Grassroots games

What we should have is an official ARG panel, the members of which would be democratically elected froods. Grassroots games would be assessed by the panel before the game launched. The game would be assessed for its likelihood of success. Factors such as overall strength of storyline, resources of the creators (personnel and finances), recruiting strategy, etc would be examined. If it was felt that the game would be extremely unlikely to succeed, the panel would point out the flaws to the game designers. Once the panel was happy, the ARG would be given an official stamp of approval which potential players could look for when choosing whether or not to play. Even without the panel's official tick, the designers could still launch the ARG if they really wanted to.

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 4:09 am
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SuperJerms
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Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 537
Location: indiana
imbri wrote:
It's not grassroots games hurting it, it's people that do not properly develop their games (whether they have $$$ behind them or not) that are hurting it.

...

Too many people go into this with only one strength (that of writer or that of game designer) and it shows... the games and stories are not fully fleshed out and they struggle, often to the point where they either stagnate or implode. That is bad for the genre and it isn't only grassroots games that have that difficulty.

Games don't implode or stagnate just because of story or just because of game design. However, I do think that, frequently, it's because story telling and game design are not properly balanced and one suffers at the hands of the other. This is especially true when both aspects are weak but when one is far weaker than the other... the piece that's left just isn't strong enough to support both. A weak story cannot hold up a badly designed game just as a weak game cannot hold up a horrible story. ARGs need people that can make the story and they need people that can make the game. And, as Wolf pointed out, money can't do either... though I will say that it sure can help!


I gotta go with this answer (though I do want to note that I have also seen games that have had terrible stories and terrible games, but just wouldn't die). The point seems to be that inexperienced PM's with poorly thought-out ideas (in either playstyle, storyline, workflow management or execution) leads to imploding ARG's. I wholly agree.

I do dissent a bit about the notion that grassroots games can hurt the genre as much as corporate ones. Lookit...if OC wound up being the "next big ARG by 42ent" in fairly major news outlets, despite the fact that it was neither an ARG nor by 42, we could have a bigger problem on our hands than whether Bob's indie venture panned out or not. It seems to me that, while ARGs are in the adaptation phase, this is infinately more dangerous than a handful of imploding grassroots games. After the various presentations by 42ent, the webbies for ReGen and ILB, and the coming E3 ARG events, game developers are looking at ARGs for the first time. Statistically, you better believe a couple of big suckas are gonna implode. It's one thing when a 15-year-old makes a typo-ridden, neon-bright angelfire.com rabbithole that doesn't finish out. It's another thing when Majestic, Push, or Myst Online doesn't work out under major player/media scrutiny. Isn't it?


Quote:
Newbie Forum


Phaedra made an excellent point saying, I'm the type of person who usually skips the instructions. I didn't notice anyone give a compelling response. I don't know about you, but I've never read or posted in a newbie thread of any forum, ever. And I only read the "READ BEFORE POSTING" stickies half the time. And that's in forums where there aren't massive threads with 1200 word posts.

UF has an introduction section, anyway. I never saw it until six months after joining, when rowan linked to the resource section.

Another thing about newbie forums. The reason I joined UF was the intellect, respect, humor and civility everyone demonstrated while I lurked at the start of ILB. I would say that spacebass, shad0 and dorkmaster were key in that (though really it was everyone, including how you dealt with flamers and trolls, and using trout). After joining, varin, vpisteve, and spacebass all continued the encouraging responses. I particularly remember how folks responded to folks who came across as unusally forward (including a certain "leading ILB theorist from the bungie.net forums" Wink).

Really, I am still astounded by how respectfully folks respond to one another, even to this day. I have never seen such a community spring up from a CMC technology. I have and would gladly recommend UF as a model of exactly how to encourage an online community. I feel much more comfortable discussing religion here with Phaedra and thebruce than I do in any church (and I really do mean that). Is that very easy to carry over to a newbie forum?
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 7:30 am
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Wolf
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Joined: 26 Sep 2002
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 		Points made and taken.

Incitatus--the spelling/grammar remark actually wasn't pointed at you. I've just seen WAY too many grassroots games that could have been better quality-wise had they looked at that angle.
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 11:27 am
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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Wolf wrote:
Points made and taken.

Incitatus--the spelling/grammar remark actually wasn't pointed at you. I've just seen WAY too many grassroots games that could have been better quality-wise had they looked at that angle.


Amen. Nothing screams "unprofessional" like:

"Our company can provide your's with quality life-extending product's."

Suspension of disbelief: shot to hell.

Have only had time to skim most of the above posts, unfortunately; I think this discussion is important, so perhaps we can avoid falling into the Pros and Cons of Grassroots discussion -- that's been done, and being done elsewhere, but I think the other issues being raised here are more important...?
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 12:13 pm
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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Location: South of where I used to be
cerulean wrote:

What we should have is an official ARG panel, the members of which would be democratically elected froods. Grassroots games would be assessed by the panel before the game launched.

...snip...

Once the panel was happy, the ARG would be given an official stamp of approval which potential players could look for when choosing whether or not to play.


Do you mean to say that the designers would *have* to submit it before launching, like a requirement? If that's what you mean, that's kinda scary Shocked

If what you meant to say was that there could be mentors available for up and coming designers if they wanted the help and advice, it wouldn't be so scary of a thought to me.
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 12:45 pm
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Incitatus
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Wolf wrote:
Points made and taken.

Incitatus--the spelling/grammar remark actually wasn't pointed at you. I've just seen WAY too many grassroots games that could have been better quality-wise had they looked at that angle.


Ok, my appologies again, took it the wrong way.
I agree, and actually saw it happening allot in PA2, thats why before I took the helm at one of my AIM aliases for the game, I installed trillian's spellchecker plugin. Rolling Eyes
So for those who played, if you saw a character type. stop. wait. then post a grammaticlly perfect line. That was me.

As phaedra says, it really shoots the realism and proffessionalism of the game in the foot.


cerulean wrote:
What we should have is an official ARG panel, the members of which would be democratically elected froods. Grassroots games would be assessed by the panel before the game launched. The game would be assessed for its likelihood of success. Factors such as overall strength of storyline, resources of the creators (personnel and finances), recruiting strategy, etc would be examined. If it was felt that the game would be extremely unlikely to succeed, the panel would point out the flaws to the game designers. Once the panel was happy, the ARG would be given an official stamp of approval which potential players could look for when choosing whether or not to play. Even without the panel's official tick, the designers could still launch the ARG if they really wanted to.


But you see, creation of such a panel publicly will not only hurt the realism of the games, dropping them down a level or two, but also introduces bias. Who's to say that a fair selection would be made? What the panel considers a poor game might actually end up as the next MC.

Plus as was previously stated by a few people, this adds unnessisary pressure on the Grassrooters, and subjucating them to a review panel, really... discourages.

Quote:
Newbies or (Noobes)

I think the formation of a newcommer section could really benifit. Coming into this world for the first time, it can easily be very confusing. I don't doubt many would want a general "What to do in case of absolute overwhelming confussion." section. I mean, I didn't even join Unfi until halfway through ILB, when I realized just what was going on here, and that this place wasn't just "The other guys working on the game".
A little clarity on ARGs and how to navigate them would improve the gameing experience for the newcommers, and hence increase the audience.
But in the Dennis Miller fashion: Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:55 pm
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Dorkmaster
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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Location: The People's Republic of Dork
SuperJerms wrote:
Another thing about newbie forums. The reason I joined UF was the intellect, respect, humor and civility everyone demonstrated while I lurked at the start of ILB. I would say that spacebass, shad0 and dorkmaster were key in that (though really it was everyone, including how you dealt with flamers and trolls, and using trout). After joining, varin, vpisteve, and spacebass all continued the encouraging responses.


It's an honor just to be mentioned! W00t! Thanks for the props!

Beyond this: I suggest all PMs submit to a blood test (you know, so we can screen your DNA to determine your potential for spelling errors), a drug test (so we can see how whacked-out your game will be [this is not always a bad thing, BTW]), as well as a personality profile that will be maintained by eHarmony.com. That way, we'll always know your intention, and if you're lying, your date will tell us the truth...

Seriously though... the idea of screening anything, or whatever is idiotic. I know lately I've been coming down kinda hard on stuff, and i don't mean to. I hope y'all know I'm never coming down on the person, just the idea (and I never come down on an idea without a full explanation of my reasoning too.) Ok, so back to topic: The idea of pre-game screening, a newbie forum, or any of the such, is just plain idotic. It presupposes that we (1) cannot police ourselves (2) all newbies need to be hand-held into the genre (3) that we don't have the time to properly help newbies (4) that we're egotistical megalomaniacs.

(1) I know the forums are growing seemingly exponentially, and it's difficult to get info on a casual basis. But that's the nature of things. You are free to always start your own board and do your own thing if you think you can do it better. If you wanna create some phpbb solution to the problem, present it to SpaceBass. Worst case scenario is that your idea is laughed off, and you jump from a building in shame. (Ok, so that wouldn't happen.... in public, anyway.) We (everyone, not just mods and admins of which I am not) already do a damn good job (we can always do better, but that was the case before the ARG explosion too) policing ourselves, maintaining the TOS, and informing noobs.

(2) Most newbies, like yourselves, are intelligent people, most likely over age 18, who only need a small pointer in the right direction, and would not only resent being hand-held via a noob-specific forum, but would also feel that they were being held in 2nd class position. (and if we did this, they would be right.)

(3) We DO have the time to help the noobs, all of us. That's MORE THAN HALF THE REASON THIS PLACE WORKS, PEOPLE!!! Why do you think I stayed, amongst my myriad of hyper-kinetic hobbies-du-jour? The community that took the time to slap my hand when I did wrong, and praised me when I did right, taught me that this was truly a community, not just a posting forum to be "heard". I was valued for my input from day one, even if that input was pure slop! I was told "please search" and "you may wanna check out the 10 commandments of ARG" and "here's where to find out about Vignere Ciphers" and such. I wasn't hand-held through the process, and I wasn't ignored. I was appropriately guided, and I found the rest myself. I felt honored to have people with forum status (400+ posts! Oh my!) take the time to reach out to me and say "hey, welcome. This is how we do things here." If we delegate this to a noob forum, we lose a huge aspect of respect and reality of how it felt when we first got here...

(4) It is egotistical to say that noobs deserve to go here and us l33t5 should go there. I feel no more explanation is necessary on this point. This is a place for EVERYONE with a genuine interest in ARG. 'Nuff Said.


Ok, so now that I'm done with my rant, I would AGAIN like to point out that I'm SO not slamming anyone specific here, AT ALL! I respect the fact that we're discussing this, as it is important to ensure we're truly servicing our "family" here... but I hate, detest, and outright loathe the idea of a newbie forum. I think we all are in agreement about the PM or game pre-screening thing. It's just too bureaucratic and not within the spirit of things at all, and should be cast right out.

Thank you for your time, peoples...

(Once more, DM steps away from the podium as this time, fists raised in the air, as The Who's "We're Not Gonna Take It" blares in the distance)
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 3:37 pm
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spaceboy
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Joined: 06 Aug 2004
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Dorkmaster wrote:


(Once more, DM steps away from the podium as this time, fists raised in the air, as The Who's "We're Not Gonna Take It" blares in the distance)


The Who? Isn't that song by Twisted Sister?

/me goes back to his darkened corner.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 2:48 am
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i_monk
Boot

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 17
Phaedra wrote:
And, btw, here in this forum, you may ask what trout is and we won't roll our eyes at you."


Crying or Very sad What will I do for fun then?

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:16 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
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 		imonk gets special dispensation

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 2:18 am
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FLmutant
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Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 244
Location: Orlando, FL

 		I've been relatively quiet in this thread, even though I've been following it regularly. Because I'm an indie at heart, and the "grassroots" of ARGdom finding your voice is an important thing. And one I'm deeply interested in, but have been biding my time to pop in on.

Phaedra wrote:
Bob has read about Perplex City and ILB (I'm not trying to diss Art of the Heist here -- it's just that I don't think I've seen as much press on it) and wants to play an ARG. So Bob comes here, and looks at the active games...and picks something poorly designed and -- worse -- boring. And it melts down midway through.


This is a variation of the "not everyone should be allowed to publish on the internet." There are loads of crappy albums and crappy movies, but people keep making them and keep listening/watching them. And sometimes each year a few really amazing things emerge from the grassroots into broader consciousness. That's the marketplace of art. So you've got a microcosom issue: what do you do when the quantity of work of the genre is small and too much of it is crap?

It's not that I don't share your concern, but I'm telling you -- if my odds of walking out of Blockbuster with a good movie were as high as my odds of clicking on an ARG in a list at ARGN and getting an interesting one ... well ... um ... I'd actually have a Blockbuster membership or something.

Oh, and no diss taken.

Incitatus wrote:
The entire genre seems to be defined by promotional and advertizing means. The genre itself must be broken from this association....to expand and become firmly defined as a Gaming genre and not just a promotional tool.


Totally agree. And I can tell you that marketers totally don't buy that ARGs are good promotional vehicles, so you've got an ally in them.

We see ARGs as one type of "branded entertainment" ... which really means that an ARG is an entertainment format first and foremost. It can just also be branded, the same way "Wild Kingdom" got branded by Mutual of Omaha ... the point wasn't that "nature shows are really good selling insurance," after all. The point was that people actually enjoyed nature shows.

Marketing people will always be interested in anything that aggregates attention. That's why they are all over the other media as well, right? And that's why they end up playing surprising roles in supporting new genres.

SuperJerms wrote:
Corporate ARG's can't really afford to end up as flops if the current ARG-as-marketing is to continue ... ARG's are seen as viral marketing.


Oh, don't make it sound like it's a big trend! Only the really daring are even willing to consider the idea, and all of them know this falls into the "highly experimental" category. Trust me, even the other "viral marketers" (and oh how I despise that phrase, which is of course completely ironic since I'm also the President of the Viral & Buzz Marketing Association) think ARGs-as-marketing is a screw-ball concept, ILB not-withstanding. They get that something is there, but they don't necessarily get what it is.

The real frontier is getting different business models in place. ARGs, like any shared media experience, produces fans ... if they are done right. And anything that produces fans will always be of interest to marketers.

Phaedra wrote:
ARGs are an innovative and extremely clever method of advertising. Being used as an advertising vehicle allows them to have a *budget* to work with, allowing different types of innovation and getting exposure that most grassroots games can't pull off.


Maybe. You have to buy into a number of other assumptions, like what kind of advertising you're going for. I'm not sure ARGs are a particularly good way to generate sales, but I think they are a really interesting way to shape public perception of a brand. Larger budgets certainly bring additional opportunities for exploration, it changes the kind of stories you can tell. But it ain't honey and roses.

Wolf wrote:
Saying grassroots games diminish the ones backed by a million dollar Micro$quish contract is insulting. We've already proven money doesn't equal quality. Quality equals quality. Money is gravy. Period.


Can I offer up an AMEN from the choir? We have this same fight all the time in the film space, where I'm definitely in the "indie" camp (heck, half the team on this page is currently part of the team running an ARG.) We have tons of needling debates as an editorial staff on what counts as an independent film and what doesn't, usually to decide whether or not to include it in box office tallies for the rest of the indie film industry.

There are crappy indie films. There are crappy Hollywood films. There are amazing indie films. There are amazing Hollywood films. I love great films. I advocate great indie films.

But Wolf said it better. Quality is quality period. Creativity is king, money is gravy.

Incitatus wrote:
That also brings forth the question: Is there a corelation to making your game great by spending more time for less money to develop the game?


Money and time are the same thing, they are resources applied to a creative task. Money goes to enhance the team, to buy things it would take too long to make with elbow grease. So there is a correlation between applying your resources intelligently have having a great game, yes.

What's the old adage about "good, fast or cheap: pick two"?

Dorkmaster wrote:
Beyond this: I suggest all PMs submit to a blood test (you know, so we can screen your DNA to determine your potential for spelling errors), a drug test (so we can see how whacked-out your game will be [this is not always a bad thing, BTW]), as well as a personality profile that will be maintained by eHarmony.com. That way, we'll always know your intention, and if you're lying, your date will tell us the truth...


This seems like the smartest and most sensible solution to me. At least for those of team members that actually have blood (or a close approximate) to go with their personalities. But it's just spec that we actually date. And lie detectors are nearly useless on PMs.


Brian

PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:09 pm
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