Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
  

The time now is Wed Nov 13, 2024 12:35 am
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)		 View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
[META] Thoughts about new game launches
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
View previous topicView next topic
Page 2 of 3 [43 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA
Saevitia wrote:
I just think you guys are jumping to conclusions.


I hear there's a great mat for that now.

Seriously, though, I'm just biding my time, waiting for someone to do something interesting and original. The best of the games out there made it unlikely, or semi-difficult, to get to them, to find the rabbit-hole, and I have found that to be much more engrossing than an email that invites me to solve a mystery, or claims to have important signs and portents of impending doom, or free ice cream, or what have you.

What happened to being interesting?

[edited for grammatical oddity]

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:14 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
Saevitia wrote:
Phaedra, I read your blog. I AGREE with you. I'm every bit as angry about bad PMs who waste our time with games that meltdown. But, I also think that the way you're jumping down throats really discourages potential PMs.


All right, having reread the post, I guess that other than the uber-cliched "OMG CONSPIRACY!" aspect of it, there's nothing wrong with it, and it doesn't break any rules. I apologize, B-Conspiracy-PM, for assuming prematurely that your game was another Flaming Heart, Iris_Eye, Black_Awakening, World of M, Manical Mant1s, Lenny's Xanga, Pandora Next, Cult of Adramalech, Project Ashcroft 2, Project Emotion, etc.

That said, there are potential PMs I want to discourage, Saevitia. I'm all for PM teams (and the occasional solo PM Wink ), regardless of their level of experience, launching their own games. I want to see lots, and lots of teams launching lots and lots of creative, well-planned games. If they try things that sometimes don't work, that's fine. If some of the games, despite the best efforts of the PMs, melt down, that's fine. It happens.

But if someone is about to launch a game like those listed about (and those are just the ones off the top of my head, I want to discourage enough that they sit back and carefully consider whether they're ready and whether they have the first clue what they're doing.

EDIT: I almost congratulated you on finishing your game, BTW. I started writing it. And then I stopped myself. Because I assume your game was good -- I didn't follow it, but everything I've heard about it has been positive.

However, not having seen it myself, I can't justifiedly congratulate you on a good game.

But, with things the way they have been around here, I almost congratulated you just for FINISHING it. And then I realized that that would just be accepting the way things are, and I really don't want to do that.
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:41 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Mantis_
Guest


 		I see a very scary trend starting... Confused

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:43 pm
 Back to top 
jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia
The_Katsurame wrote:
I see a very scary trend starting... Confused


Is that the trend where people keep violating the rules and regulations of an unnamed message board by creating and posting under multiple accounts? That would be a scary trend.

/me goes to do his dirty business.
_________________
Digital Trail | Twitter | Retired ARGFest-o-Con 2012 Project Manager

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:10 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
DreamOfTheRood
Unfettered


Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 714
Location: Indiana

 		I see a trend: elitism.

Have any of the posters actually looked at this game yet, or have we just been discussing its potential to disappoint?

Isn't there some parable about that?
_________________
Twitter: DreamoftheRood


PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:40 am
 View user's profile MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
DreamOfTheRood wrote:
I see a trend: elitism.

Have any of the posters actually looked at this game yet, or have we just been discussing its potential to disappoint?

Isn't there some parable about that?


I've admitted that I jumped on it prematurely, DOTR. I'm testy after being treated like a guinea pig and/or a toy by various "PM"s.

But I'm confused as to where "elitism" comes into it.

I'm sorry, are you implying that the above-listed games didn't meltdown? Or that pointing out that they melted down is elitist?

Because otherwise, I would say it's bad experiences, rather than elitism, that's driving this discussion.
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:52 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
jshall
Decorated


Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 193

 		Personally, I try as hard as I can to stay away from corporate games. They just seem so saturated with people to me. Dont get me wrong they are great I just cant really seem to work my way into them most of the time.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:58 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
GuyP
Unfettered


Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK
DreamOfTheRood wrote:
I see a trend: elitism.


No, elitism is belonging to an elite and trying to exclude others. We just don't like things that suck. Gawd!

DreamOfTheRood wrote:
Have any of the posters actually looked at this game yet, or have we just been discussing its potential to disappoint?


The game? Are you referring to this or maybe this? Well, its ugly, trite, clichèd, crass and altogether offensive in it's total lack of imagination yet apparent expectation that people might still play. Is it too much to ask that they might have used something other than the default Blogspot template? Made an HTML page with something other than the standard font? Actually spent the five minutes it takes discover that Deaddrop will host your game, thus not requiring the much-loathed free webspace?

I don't think so. And if they can't be bothered to do that, then I can't be bothered to play. As this thread has shown, though, it starts to run deeper than "not being bothered to play" - it's downright irritating.

And to whoever is behind this:

Did you think you'd become a PM celebrity, son? Are you after attention? Well this is the kind of attention you get when you mess up on stage - there's a long silence, and then the crowd starts laughing. At you. And it's not because they hate you, but because you're not good enough to perform just yet.

I empathise. You know, I'd love to be a great PM. To be full of inspiration, talent, and dedication, to build a game that's innovative, exciting and moving, and yes, to be admired and respected for it. I like to think someday that might happen. But not yet. Because I can design, but I can't design well enough. I can write, but I can't make people laugh and cry with my writing. I can cook up story ideas, but not one that's going to grab players by the jugular and pull them in.

I think that's why I find these games and their PM's so spectacularly arrogant. As the saying goes, if it's worth doing, then it's worth doing well. If you can't do that, then just don't - until you've learnt how. Capiche?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:28 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
xnbomb
Unfettered


Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 660
Location: J302B S8JDC

 		Best foot forward
While I agree with many of the sentiments expressed above, I'm going to begin by focusing on a different, but related idea, namely what a puppetmaster needs to accomplish with a trailhead.

To put it simply, a trailhead needs to get the attention of prospective players and *convince* them that it is worth paying attention to what might happen next. Much of the criticism of the email sent to Mr. Botherer and the two web pages that are thusfar visible arises from the fact that there is nothing in there that the critical posters in this thread find compelling. I have to agree on that count.

DreamOfTheRood wrote:
Have any of the posters actually looked at this game yet, or have we just been discussing its potential to disappoint?

Putting the issue of 'rules' and appropriate/allowed methods of drawing attention to a trailhead aside, what a trailhead needs to do is make a case for why players should play your game. I agree that to judge something, one must first have a look at it. But, I have looked at it, and like some others who have posted previously, I am not grabbed by anything that I see. Now, don't get me wrong: That is the opinion of just one player, and any given game is never going to appeal to everyone. Furthermore, varying players have a different tolerance when it comes to giving a new game time to garner their interest. Some are extremely charitable when it comes to giving a new game a chance to get them excited, others less so.

But now I'll come to my point: For many players, the trailhead represents a game's one and only chance to get their attention. And as such, it had better be well done. It had better grab players by the lapels and say 'look at me, I'm interesting and well done and you know you want play me!' A trailhead *must* put the game's best foot forward, because it is effectively the advertisement for the game.

What some of the posters in this thread have implicitly said is 'if this is the best you've got, I'm not interested'. And that is a perfectly legitimate sentiment to express. Now as to whether or not we should reserve judgement on a game for period x and/or find it appropriate or inappropriate to post criticism early on etc. let me state the following: Based on what I am reading, the honeymoon is over. Too many substandard games have started lately, and usually in similarly uncompelling fashion.

Your game needs to differentiate itself from the many others that have begun poorly and failed miserably. It needs to show prospective players something that gives them the confidence to believe that your game is not more of the same, but something that is well thought out, and likely to be worth their interest. Many of the details mentioned above about this and other similar trailheads (how they are discovered, where are the pages hosted, is what is found there in any way interesting), illustrate the shortcomings: They lack creativity to the point that it would take a tremendous leap of faith to believe that the game is going to be worth it.

What this topic illustrates is that there are many posters here who are no longer willing to readily make that leap, not without some clearer indication of something different and special awaiting. This is not elitism. It is a logical assertion that a game must not trot out the same tired, cliched opening material as many other recently failed games, unless the goal is to have potential players perceive it to be just like those other recently failed games. A trailhead must be compelling. It is the material upon which potential players will initially judge whether or not to play your game. It had better be 'ready for primetime' good, or your audience is going to change the channel.

GuyP wrote:
I think that's why I find these games and their PM's so spectacularly arrogant. As the saying goes, if it's worth doing, then it's worth doing well. If you can't do that, then just don't - until you've learnt how. Capiche?

Now, to more directly address the issue of whether or not posters should be criticizing games in their early stages: To sit quietly on our hands and not be critical of poor efforts (as judged by our own individual standards) is to invite more of the same. The non-critical culture, that was the norm here for so long, has created an atmosphere that is permissive of puppetmasters trotting out material that just doesn't cut it. From the point of view that states 'there is enough room on the forum for everyone, if you don't like it, don't read it, etc.', I don't necessarily have a problem with that.

However, it is the combination of various posters in other Meta topics expressing the opinion that they are entitled to an audience/attention/the benefit of the doubt, and the damaging effect that instance after instance of poorly-designed games has which has me sitting up and taking notice (and writing this post). There are consequences to the repeated abuses of the permissive, trusting attitude that has been the norm here, and we are seeing them now. One consequence is that it is going to take something more and better for a game to differentiate itself from those that have failed. Another consequence is that many who have previously been willing to not criticize a poor effort are now speaking up. I believe they are speaking up because puppetmasters now seem to need to be told that their games are not going to be unconditionally well received by virtue of the mere fact of their existence. One would think that this is self-evident, and that puppetmasters' fear of embarassing themselves would be sufficient to dissuade them from launching when they really are not ready (as GuyP has described).

But recent events suggest that this is no longer the case. The fact that these many recent failed games have such striking similarities is telling. There are folks out there who are putting games together and presenting them to the UF community as ready to go, when evidently they are not. It is my opinion that the culture of non-criticism has encouraged this phenomenon. However, this is something I don't want to encourage, and neither do some other posters in this topic. So as a result, the burden to impress prospective players has become greater, and puppetmasters are going to read about it when their material doesn't cut it, because simply staying mum is not staunching the flow.
_________________
My location is a little tricky, but sooner or later, you'll get the knack.

{J302B S8JDC, 8996N M8L4W, 92D40 Q1JX5, 4PPRN R2B97, 8DC7C NZJNV, 8CH7V Q891H}

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:37 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Nightmare Tony
Entrenched

Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 824
Location: Meadowbrook

 		Game starting withthe IM to HKDL

One word: SYNAGOGA.
_________________
For this is the place where dreams and nightmares are birthed and bred
Nightmare Park

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:10 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
PokeKiller
Decorated


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 216
Nightmare Tony wrote:
Game starting withthe IM to HKDL

One word: SYNAGOGA.

Oh, yeah, that piece of crap. I mean, nobody played it, it just died suddenly, and it was so bad that the admins didn't even see a point in archiving it.
_________________
Doughnuts before justice!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:35 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

 		Re: Best foot forward
xnbomb wrote:
To put it simply, a trailhead needs to get the attention of prospective players and *convince* them that it is worth paying attention to what might happen next.


xnbomb wrote:
what a trailhead needs to do is make a case for why players should play your game.


xnbomb wrote:
For many players, the trailhead represents a game's one and only chance to get their attention.


xnbomb wrote:
A trailhead *must* put the game's best foot forward, because it is effectively the advertisement for the game.


xnbomb wrote:
Based on what I am reading, the honeymoon is over. Too many substandard games have started lately, and usually in similarly uncompelling fashion.


xnbomb wrote:
a game must not trot out the same tired, cliched opening material as many other recently failed games, unless the goal is to have potential players perceive it to be just like those other recently failed games.


xnbomb wrote:
To sit quietly on our hands and not be critical of poor efforts (as judged by our own individual standards) is to invite more of the same.


xnbomb wrote:
The fact that these many recent failed games have such striking similarities is telling. There are folks out there who are putting games together and presenting them to the UF community as ready to go, when evidently they are not.


Marry me, xnbomb. I'll be good to you.
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:36 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
PokeKiller wrote:
Nightmare Tony wrote:
Game starting withthe IM to HKDL

One word: SYNAGOGA.

Oh, yeah, that piece of crap. I mean, nobody played it, it just died suddenly, and it was so bad that the admins didn't even see a point in archiving it.


I didn't end up playing Synagoga, because the writing didn't grab me, but I'm willing to acknowledge that as a matter of personal taste rather than a judgment on the game's quality.

Synagoga IM'd hkdl. Not a problem. The eye-rolling and snarking about "maybe you should IM hkdl" comes not from the fact that Synagoga did it, but rather from the subsequent, lazy, imitation by other launches. If Synagoga had been the only game to do it, it wouldn't be a cliche.
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:46 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Nightmare Tony
Entrenched

Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 824
Location: Meadowbrook

 		It wasnmt the first or last but it wass still teh most interesting and made the game merge go onto everyone's lips even though Alz did it first.

I got in personally not at the beginning but after a random read, the base sotryline reminded me of a short fictional story I wrote for a magazine. It grabbed the interest and didnt let go. was als playing WI because I love the mad screwball world sometimes, and nope, didnt have a clue to the merge, it was like DAMN!

That game is a true work of genius. Playing games with the cliches, it really went to town.
_________________
For this is the place where dreams and nightmares are birthed and bred
Nightmare Park

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:55 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be
PokeKiller wrote:
Oh, yeah, that piece of crap. I mean, nobody played it, it just died suddenly, and it was so bad that the admins didn't even see a point in archiving it.


I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious Razz I only lurked a bit in Synagoga because really I only have time for one ARG at the most these days and when the merger happened I didn't have time to research the other half. So ummmm just in case others who didn't play Synagoga are interested...

Synagoga is archived here under Wildfire Industries because the two games merged (or something).
_________________
"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:31 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 2 of 3 [43 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group