Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
 
The time now is Wed Nov 13, 2024 12:33 am
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)
View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Continuation of "Blog Use" from Setsumei Hiru thre
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
View previous topicView next topic
Page 1 of 2 [18 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Author Message
miss_seph
Unfettered


Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 395
Location: New Zealand

Continuation of "Blog Use" from Setsumei Hiru thre

Ehsan wrote:
[RANT]
Dear Aspiring PM's,

If you really, really, REALLY need to do a blog (which has been done to death), do you really need to use Blogger with a default theme!?

Cheap hosting + domain + open source CMS/Blog + free creative template + basic Internet skills = Will not cost you more than $20.
[/RANT]



What if the character that's created the blog knows very little about computers, and doesn't KNOW that they can even get templates and hosting and such? Would they not use a standard theme?

In specific regards to the "find Setsumei Hiru" game, I would suggest the character is using the blog for a single purpose - to find his friend. When people want to find something, they don't worry themselves with layouts of their medium - you don't see missing pet leaflets printed on Goldleaf paper with pretty fonts and swirly borders do you? no, you see whatever paper they could find, with a straight-to-the-point font and a picture of the pet.

This blog fits the character and the character's purpose in my opinion.
_________________
Caro xoxo
http://caronz.blogspot.com
XBL: SephNZ


PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:56 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Lewis the Second
Decorated

Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 198

Definitely.

Flashy sites only work if they'd be flashy in real life, remember.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:32 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
GuyP
Unfettered


Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK

I did get a bit face-stabby over "The Conspiracy Of B" and it's design, but that was due to a lack of any kind of context and overall badness.

In this case though, the writing is there, it's purpose is fairly clear, so I think it holds together. Even ILB used a Blogspot template!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:57 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Lewis the Second
Decorated

Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 198

Conspiracy of B suffers - albeit very slightly - because one or two of the sites were shabby because of a lack of effort, not because of context.

Let's face it, if you were starting a blog in real life, with no professional purpose or reasoning behind it, wouldn't you be happy to stick to a default template?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:14 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

Re: Continuation of "Blog Use" from Setsumei Hiru

miss_seph wrote:
This blog fits the character and the character's purpose in my opinion.


I totally agree.
_________________
"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5


PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:26 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Nightmare Tony
Entrenched

Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 824
Location: Meadowbrook

And there's a rub, isnt it? If your character is a poor student, it would be kind of out of wack for him to have a professional flash site with all kinds of ritzy things. By the same token, a multinational company or big organization is NOT going to use a free Geocities page....

Context.

And the same with puzzles, please.
(props to Synagoga for a game where it was making puzzles based on the player's names! Smile
_________________
For this is the place where dreams and nightmares are birthed and bred
Nightmare Park


PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:45 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

Lewis the Second wrote:
Conspiracy of B suffers - albeit very slightly - because one or two of the sites were shabby because of a lack of effort, not because of context.

Let's face it, if you were starting a blog in real life, with no professional purpose or reasoning behind it, wouldn't you be happy to stick to a default template?


No. Razz

But then again, I freely admit I'm a snob. Wink
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:22 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
GuyP
Unfettered


Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK

Also a template snob... Smile

But this is the rub, isn't it? Tying in with what I said in the Game Launches thread, the trailhead is all about showing that you're hardworking and taking the game seriously.

Yes, you can get away with saying that "using the template makes sense in context." But unfortunately, it's also the same template that's been used for a thousand sucky wannabe-games.

Forgivable, yes. Exciting? No. Especially for a trailhead.

(PM's should take note that other, free, pre-made templates are available that are very easy to use. Try here, or Google for 'em.)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:53 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Ehsan
Entrenched

Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992

I started that rant, and I did it for a reason so let me explain.

I have been very vocal about my opinions for the last few days, and decided to join this ARGument that has been going on for the past few weeks.

Before you contribute anything to this discussion, please think about why we are discussion it in the first place. We're all here because we love ARG's, because we want the genre to thrive and someday become mainstream. Why? Maybe because we're geeks or we have nothing better to do, doesn't matter. What matters is that any opinion, critique, or even flame should be directed towards that purpose.

If you are here because certain people have hurt your feelings in the past, because you want to argue for the sake of arguing, or because you think we're all wrong, then I'm not interested in hearing your opinion. I can't stop you from posting but I'd rather you go away because your opinions are contagious and spread to those who can't make up their own minds.


Back to our discussion:

miss_seph wrote:
What if the character that's created the blog knows very little about computers, and doesn't KNOW that they can even get templates and hosting and such? Would they not use a standard theme?

The blog fits the character and the character's purpose in my opinion.


I totally agree with you. The blog fits the character perfectly. It wouldn't make any sense to do anything else...

But look at the bigger picture, can't you see the risk of giving authors excuses?

Critic: "Hey, your novel is very drab and your characters are lifeless"
Writer: "Well, that's because they are dead. You see I'm a good writer, it's just that my characters are dead so I couldn't add any life to the story."

Critic: "The dialogue in your movie was HORRIBLE!"
Director: "Well our characters were really uneducated when they were children and only learned how to speak when they were 20, so they don't know how to really talk well to each other."

See, it's very easy to "blame it on the characters". It's really easy to take the easy way out:

"Hey, I have no idea how to design a cool website, so you know what? My character doesn't either!"

It wouldn't have taken any effort to make the poor student have a background--he took a 1 hour blog design workshop a couple of months ago. There! Now where's my fancy website?

Again, don't take the easy way out. You have an obligation towards your audience to show some effort.


Lewis the Second wrote:
Conspiracy of B suffers - albeit very slightly - because one or two of the sites were shabby because of a lack of effort, not because of context.

Let's face it, if you were starting a blog in real life, with no professional purpose or reasoning behind it, wouldn't you be happy to stick to a default template?


Yeah, but this is not real life is it. As much as we swear by the TINAG mantra and praise games for being so "realistic", the fact is we know it's STILL a game. The only difference is that we are expecting a higher suspension of disbelief than say from a movie. But relating things to real life should not be the reason for us to lower our standards when it comes to entertainment.

When you go to a movie that shows computer what's the most annoying thing ever? For me it's that fake user interface eye-candy voice-activated password-cracking image-zoom-enhance scene. I hate it because I know that's not what computers look like in real life!

Yet movie makers continue to use "fake" technology, that does not make sense "in real life". They do that because it's what works, it's what looks better, it is what entertains.

It is up to the writer to make the story not only read good, but also look good.


Nightmare Tony wrote:

Context.


Totally agree. It's all about context. The premise of your story dictates how that story will be presented.


But if your context is bad, so is your presentation.

Who is to say if the context is good or bad? The audience, of course!

Step back a little bit and look at the bigger picture. ARG's today are a very small genre of expression. Getting nothing of the huge exposure movies and books get.

There are good books and bad books. Good movies and bad movies. Good ARG's and bad ARG's.

The difference between the "grown" genres and ARG's is that books and movies have reached a mature level of exposure. People don't even hear about bad movies because they're not played at major theaters. People don't read bad novels because they don't get published in the first place! I'm not talking about your "Lucas has stolen my childhood and Episode 1 is the work of the devil" kind of sucks. I'm talking about the REALLY bad movies which get filtered out and nobody hears about.

Walks in Mr. Internet author. Wooh! A creative outlet anyone can use and get EQUAL exposure with the big players. No more filtering, no more quality control.

Why should we care? Well, back to the whole "growing genre" argument. I for one want ARG's to become mainstream. For that to happen we need more players, we need "better" players, and people who don't want to play but just want to see what the fuss is all about to be at least tantalized (READ: Marketing Executive with lots of money).

Now what happens when a new player walks into unfiction? "Hey look, so many ARG's!!! I'll just pickkk... this one! Right.. hey.. this doesn't look too good. I'm outta here."

Yes, so many choices, Seen James, Domes, Sable & Shuck, Zoe's World, Omnifam, Heist, Flaming Heart, AIMus2Day, list goes on and on.

Many choices, zero quality control. No filtering because the Internet cannot be filtered. No wonder Heist doesn't get the audience it deserves, it's at the very bottom of the list and it started a long time ago so "I guess I'll play this other game which is just starting and the character PERSONALLY contacted me on AIM !!! woot!!"

Bigger picture, people, bigger picture.

What should we do? Ban all new PM's? Enforce PM Academy? Of course not! God forbid we do something so stupid. What we should do is offer CONSTUCTIVE CRITICISM, and the group of people who jump up every time that happens to defend "the poor new PM who's doing his best" should take a break because they're not doing anyone a favor. I admit, our criticism might not have been very "constructive" sometimes, but I can see that our heart's in the right place.

And new PM's need the criticism. Anyone who wants to become a PM must realize that you need to be a good story writer (no, climax is not a dirty word!), you need to be a good character writer ("protogast--wha?"), a good web site designer, a very good web developer/script writer, a very intelligent person who can think of challenging puzzles, and a creative person in general to bring it all together.

I don't know a single person in real life who has all those skills. I wonder why we have so many "solo" PM's trying to do all of those things by themselves.


Now back to Setsumei Hiru.. There are two scenarios:
1- The author spent a lot of time and effort thinking about charectarization, and decided that the best way to show the character's untechnical background was to create a simple default blog. In a moment of creativity, the author found that the simplest solutions are the most beautiful. Dozens of excellently designed websites are waiting to be discovered, but the trailhead is a very clever innovation designed to draw in new players.

2- The author wasn't bothered to or didn't know how to design a proper website.

In all honesty, which do you think it is? I'm not really sure yet, but all I've seen so far supports #2:

- No effort to write an original story
- No effort to announce a creative trailhead
- No effort to design a proper website.

What I have seen and liked is:

- Some good writing
- An excellent creative premise (Anime)

And that is why I will stay, and continue playing this one. I will tag along and hope I'm proven wrong by what's coming next. But if 2 weeks pass and that blog and a couple of cheap websites is all we have, this one's following the rest in the bin.

I will look at anything you throw at me, I will consider it, and if it sucks I will be very vocal about it in a meta thread.

CARGO for life, baby.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:29 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Nightmare Tony
Entrenched

Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 824
Location: Meadowbrook

I would put Strange Dreams 1 and 2, Harbingers and Project Gateway as some superb examples of good single pming. There is an excellent single pm game going on this second on here, but it wont be divulged just yet.

some people have the multiple disciplines. Others do not. And in having a team of PMs, their skills can complement each other to help make everything click.

Storyline, characters, context. All fitting together.

I would have to disagree about all the sites in a game to be glitzy, to avoid a plain blog. Context is where one would fit in. Too much glitz hurts the eyes. Go to Disneyland, Toon Town, stay for an hour in there. you will emerge dizzy, confused and with a headache.

Why?

EVERY point of eyesight is a hot attention spot. There is literally NO cool rest spot for the eyes. So there is a fatigue that sets in.

yopu may also want to vary puzzles. instead of making all the hardest possible, throw the players a bone with something easy. Gauge the difficulty, adjust accordingly. Give the easy ones, let the players enjoy, increase difficulty for the thrill of accomplishment.

but vary it all, high and low energy. Keep it moving along like a rollercoaster. Plenty of eenergy to make the entire circuit and give your players the thrill they want and deserve.
_________________
For this is the place where dreams and nightmares are birthed and bred
Nightmare Park


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:51 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

Ehsan wrote:

If you are here because certain people have hurt your feelings in the past, because you want to argue for the sake of arguing, or because you think we're all wrong, then I'm not interested in hearing your opinion. I can't stop you from posting but I'd rather you go away because your opinions are contagious and spread to those who can't make up their own minds.

Wow.
_________________
Alternate Currency
Stories and dreams, crossing my palm like silver.

xbl gamertag: krystyn


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:51 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
weephun
Entrenched


Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Fuquay Varina, NC

krystyn wrote:
Ehsan wrote:

If you are here because certain people have hurt your feelings in the past, because you want to argue for the sake of arguing, or because you think we're all wrong, then I'm not interested in hearing your opinion. I can't stop you from posting but I'd rather you go away because your opinions are contagious and spread to those who can't make up their own minds.

Wow.


Flaming Nutter .... hmmmm Wink

*emphasis added
_________________
- Sean Stewart: "generally people like seeing their names on TV, although probably no one has had a more mixed experience with that then weephun, God bless him.
- Currently assisting Epic Games in their quest for world domination


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:22 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
miss_seph
Unfettered


Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 395
Location: New Zealand

Total 180...

Ehsan wrote:

If you are here because certain people have hurt your feelings in the past, because you want to argue for the sake of arguing, or because you think we're all wrong ...

Now back to Setsumei Hiru.. There are two scenarios:

1- The author spent a lot of time and effort thinking about charectarization, and decided that the best way to show the character's untechnical background was to create a simple default blog. In a moment of creativity, the author found that the simplest solutions are the most beautiful. Dozens of excellently designed websites are waiting to be discovered, but the trailhead is a very clever innovation designed to draw in new players....



To the stuff above in blue - Nope, not I - I'm just here because I wanted to reply to the post when it was in the game thread, but didn't want to clutter up the thread by furthering this meta discussion - but also because I thought I held a specific opinion...

Believe it or not, I've changed my mind (with specific regards to THIS game) due to one specific point you mentioned at the very end of your novel (and this is why debate is so healthy!) - the stuff in red.

The stuff in red discusses the character's untechnical background. Once you get into the story, you see that Mr. Travis (main character) has a partner, Kara - and Kara has extensive webdesign experience.

Thus a potential explanation for a pretty blog, to go with the other pretty websites that are in this game.

I have to wonder, though, why the PMs paid very special attention to the other sites, to the point of implementing a forum on one of them, and yet very little attention to the blog. Makes no sense to me, unless ofcourse the other sites aren't specifically in game, and the PM's name IS Travis, and he DOES run an anime website...

Anyway, I still believe that in game websites MUST fit the context, the experience of the character, etc, but by the same train of thought, they should be consistent. If a character has a great website for their art, why not for their missing friend? If a character's best friend is a webdesigner, why not ask her to create a blog for you?

Hiru's been missing since the beginning of May, he waited a month to put the site up, what's another couple of hours to get Kara to make it stand out?

See, now I just don't know what I believe anymore....
_________________
Caro xoxo
http://caronz.blogspot.com
XBL: SephNZ


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:44 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

ARGument

Quote:
I have been very vocal about my opinions for the last few days, and decided to join this ARGument that has been going on for the past few weeks.


What ARGument are you talking about specifically? I'm not being sarcastic, I have been away, not checking the boards regularly other than Heist for a while and not in #unfiction. I have only heard bits of whispers about Meta discussions, but I haven't been able to find a clear statement of the fundamental issue we are trying to address.

Quote:

Now what happens when a new player walks into unfiction? "Hey look, so many ARG's!!! I'll just pickkk... this one! Right.. hey.. this doesn't look too good. I'm outta here."


We want our tiny genre to thrive. Poor quality games may be one factor that hinders the growth of the player base. I don't know if we track the number of people who drop out of ARGs because they try a game that flops or fails.

As far as I can tell, the biggest increases in player base result from games that relate to an external, pre-existing level of interest -- a big budget movie, another game, a new game console. Many of these people stay around or at least return when they get an ARGN announcement of a new game.

Quote:
The difference between the "grown" genres and ARG's is that books and movies have reached a mature level of exposure.


So, if I understand this correctly, your idea is that ARGs, being both tiny and very new, have no intermediary wielding control of access between audience and PuppetMaster. A publisher, as an intermediary between author and reader, might reject a manuscript, so it never reaches gets printed; a distributor, as an intermediary between filmmaker and moviegoer, might reject a film, so it never sees the light of day. Unquestionably, in those industries, that is a type of filter and control --primarily related to market concerns.

I had a similar, but not identical, thought yesterday when I started yet another thread to address this question. I stated the question in terms of "indie/student" ARGs-- but I am not sure that is the right question. (I just saw this post this morning.)

Quote:
No wonder Heist doesn't get the audience it deserves, it's at the very bottom of the list and it started a long time ago


I find the lack of buzz about Heist surprising. The game was quite obviously the best one playing for the past few months. I don't think the position on the list was the only issue, though it had to be a factor. Also, new players catching up is an issue in any game, but there were resources to help with that.

Heist didn't seem to get the crucial initial support of players for a variety of reasons: distain for a game so obviously tied into a commercial product; mistaken ideas that the puzzles were of the level of looking up VIN numbers; irritation that the PMs broke the curtain; complaints an in-game forum where characters could post; and, of course, the mass of people waiting for Syzygy to start--I have no idea how much the large cash prize keeps people analyzing every iota of that game, but it has to have some effect.

After Heist got going, people didn't seem to appreciate the huge leap forward the game was making in terms of live interaction and high expectations as to the players' technical expertise. Several times I tried to interest players in Heist because it was such a great game and a unique experience they would enjoy. I got a mixed response. Some people jumped right in or, at least, took a look. Other people seemed to feel that if I had to promote a game it wasn't worth playing. Smile

I don't know why, but speaking very generally, sometimes we treat games we aren't playing with a sort of contempt, instead of an open mind. Sometimes that contempt is based on rumours or inaccurate ideas about a game. Maybe that attitude is part of the issue we need to address.
_________________
I love this site for being free, in every sense of the word~Spacebass

Mankind was my business, the common good was my business.~ Dickens


PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:26 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
Ehsan
Entrenched

Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992

Re: ARGument

rose wrote:

What ARGument are you talking about specifically?


I'm not sure if there's been a specific thread about it, but it's something I've seen in different posts here and there. My favorite coverage of the issue comes from smirkbox here, here, and here. Even ARGTalk took a crack at it. Some people felt that new PM's were being targeted and discouraged, hence the argument.

You nailed the other issues right in the head. You got the gist of what I meant, and I agree with what you added to it.

I'm just not sure how we can solve the problem.. right now all I can do is rant in meta, and hope someone intelligent agrees that there is a problem and fixes things Smile

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:47 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 2 [18 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2 Next
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group