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GypsySoft Post-Mortem by the PM
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Lewis the Second
Decorated

Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 198

 		Abbot_Beryl: don't get too put off by Rose's comments. There's an inane trend of slagging off the very concept of Grassroots at the moment, which is the most unhealthy thing that one could possibly do for the community, and tends to come across as fairly arrogant. It's the forum-posting equivelant of ARGN's decision to tag a 'warning' onto every indie game launched. The majority of people here would love to play a decent Grassroots game once in a while because, hidden amongst the trash, there are many. It's a shame yours didn't get going, because it certainly looked good.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:28 pm
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Lewis the Second
Decorated

Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 198
imbri wrote:
Lewis the Second wrote:
Edit: Rose, what's with the attitude?


I wholehearted support Rose and her attitude. She has every right to it and, frankly, has many reasons to have it. I have to be honest and admit that I feel similarly. Having spoken with others on the matter, I know that we are not alone with those feelings. Despite those feelings, or perhaps because of them, we can use this thread as the author intended it. Well, not to serve his ego, but to constructively point out the errors of what he has done so as to help others not make those same mistakes.


But that's not what her attitude was. Maybe I misunderstood it, but the post came across more as: "Well, it was grassroots, what do you expect? Don't even bother next time."

Moreover, yes, constructive criticism is fantastic, but that post offered nothing but frankly rude comments to the PM. That's not going to solve anything. Yes, the game failed, yes, we're disappointed, yes, the PM messed up a bit. But that can all be pointed out politely and constructively.

Come on. This is a community. Let's make it look like one.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:31 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
Lewis the Second wrote:
Moreover, yes, constructive criticism is fantastic, but that post offered nothing but frankly rude comments to the PM.


And yours offered?

Honestly, if you've been around the meta threads at all you know that Rose's thoughts are anything but, "Well, it was grassroots, what do you expect? Don't even bother next time." She happens to be one of the most supportive of the meta-heads when it comes to discussing grassroots games and is, frankly, because of her that I'm as reasoned as I am in this post.

But now you've just served (and I took a healthy bite) a nice portion of thread derailing. Twas much better when we were actually being constructive.

So, back to that...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:40 pm
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Puppet Master ;D
Guest
konamouse wrote:
Quick, some established/experienced PM, pick this kid up for your writing team.


Already got him, first thing I did last night ;D (and yes, we do have a team, and good sized one at that)

Expect something... well you'll see when, just don't be expecting something from HKDL... well not on aim at least

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:01 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago
Lewis the Second wrote:
There's an inane trend of slagging off the very concept of Grassroots at the moment...

Wow, that's simply not true.




Also, as to filtering? I dislike the idea intensely. Way too highly subjective; a slippery slope of choosing based on who happens to be around and involved in the community at any given time. Whim and Politics could conceivably become even unconscious players in such a system. I say booooo.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:16 pm
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Lewis the Second
Decorated

Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 198

 		Maybe I was a little harsh and exaggerative, but it certainly is happening, and it isn't healthy.

But yeah, back to the thread.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:19 pm
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L.Boomer
Decorated


Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 170
Location: The Gym by the Beach, or the Beach by the Gym.

 		Abbot_Beryl,

Rose was absolutly correct with her post. If you had paid any attention at all, you would have known that we have had more than enough examples of what not to do with creating a game. Yes, it was nice of you to own up to your mistake, but that doesn't excuse it.

Abbot wrote:
We can spend hours upon hours solving puzzles but we can't do anything about keeping down failures and instructing new PMs?


If you would have spent a little more time browsing the Meta threads, you would find topic after topic discussing how to keep down failures and what the "new" pm needs to create a successful game. The information is there, you just didn't look for it. The biggest recommendation being to get experience working BTS on someone elses game before jumping head first into your great new experience. This is further shown by our Anonymous poster who believes that the whole 7 hours that the PM "team" combined is putting into their game is enough. From my experience, that is maybe a minimum amount of time for a good puzzle trail with a very light story.

The second recommendation is to not be afraid to ask for help or input from those that have been through it before. There are plenty of people that will help "ahead of time" to give advice, criticism, and probably even help you out BTS. "Ahead of Time" being the operative words here. You said yourself that you knew it was futile to take on the project by yourself...yet that is exactly what you did. Obviously you read that recommendation but chose to ignore it. You should at least have someone to help playtest your puzzles before release and to be able to stand in should something happen that would make you unavailiable for any amount of time, and if you still insist on trying to make a game yourself, maybe try it out on a small scale with some of your friends before unleashing it on the rest of us. No matter how much you prepare, there will always be things that you in now way expected to happen that will occur during gameplay (those with previous experience know this). Backup plans are a must have, not an afterthought.

Abbot wrote:
The first step in creating an ARG is participating in one, obviously.

And here is the kicker. That is the ill percieved thought that seems to be running rampant though the ranks of inexperienced PM's lately. First lurking and participating are not quite the same thing, but that is a different issue. While participating in a game is kind of considered a prerequisite to creating a game (in my opinion playing one is just not enough, you should experience a couple of games first) the actual first step in creating a game is knowing what it is you are trying to create, and how to create it. It is all too apparent that many of these failed attempts are coming from the misconception that just because you played a game, now you can create one. Research and experience are the key to a successful game, and we can keep preaching this till we are blue in the face, but the point doesn't seem to get through. Wether it is ignorance, or arrogance that is behind it I am not sure, but neither is a valid excuse to ignore what has been said time and time again.

Abbot wrote:
It looks like I'm far off. It seems the only way to narrow down the amount of games out there is to yell and complain and rant until you scare all the less fortunate PMs out there. Oh wow, that's starting to make sense to me.

Abbot again, had you done a little bit of research you would have found that the community has reacted accordingly to these failed games. First it was sort of let by without much comment, then it garnered the need for a designation, then it started to get criticism in hopes of quelling the surge of failed attempts, all this time with plenty of great advice given to stop these incidents. Now we are at the point of Ranting because we are reaching the end of the cycle of accepting the same problems over and over.
So sadly yes, your game is another good example of what not to do.


Yes, you did put more effort and creativity into your failed venture, than others have recently . For that congratulations and I am sure we will be seeing your name again. Hopefully next time under better circumstances,(and preferrably as a person BTS on someone elses game). We are in no way trying to discourage people from trying to create games, we just really need the failures to stop.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:29 pm
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Abbot_Beryl
Greenhorn

Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 5

 		Well, I apologize. There's not much more to say. I'm not going to just say something you want me to say, nor am I going to try to argue.

I'm just sad, that after going on about how the game is for the players, that I've only just now realized what kind of players we're trying to go out on a limb to entertain.

No hard feelings. Call me selfish, but if I havn't helped others, I've helped myself I suppose. Cool.

I really don't want to be the center of anger, despite the fact that I can't really avoid it due to being a teenage grassroots pm...

*I'll close my eyes, and if I can't see them, they can't see me...*


Very Happy

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:04 pm
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SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar
Lewis the Second wrote:
There's an inane trend of slagging off the very concept of Grassroots at the moment

...

Maybe I was a little harsh and exaggerative, but it certainly is happening, and it isn't healthy.


Actually, no there isn't. There is, however, an inane trend of people claiming that there is some huge conspiracy against grassroots games. I am not entirely sure where it comes from, but I suspect a lot of it is rooted in the feelings of some grassroots wannabe PMs having been hurt when their attempts at games were not welcomed with unqualified adoration, merely for the fact of their having existed.

This really has nothing to do with whether they are grassroots games or not, but is more about the fact that they sucked balls in one way or another. Players complain just as loudly about corporate attempts that suck too (cf. the Sable & Schuck slow melt, and the Our Colony pseudo-ARG fiasco), but we don't see those wannabe PMs whining about how everyone hates corporate games and why can't they all just have a chance blah blah blah.

Back on topic: Abbot, although there may be some criticism here that was directed at your personal situation or which you may take personally if it applies to you, I do not believe the majority of players harbor any animosity towards you. Rather, the criticism we see here is a product of many, many failed or failing attempts at games that have cropped up lately, and your situation allows us an anchor for our specific critiques of some very general ideas based on those failures. I do think this is a quite valuable discussion and hope that future aspiring PMs will take note and, more importantly, take these debates to heart, rather than assuming that "Well, that won't happen to me."
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:27 pm
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia
Lewis the Second wrote:
There's an inane trend of slagging off the very concept of Grassroots at the moment, which is the most unhealthy thing that one could possibly do for the community, and tends to come across as fairly arrogant.

Funny, I thought the inane trend was to defend 'grassroots' games that implode, based on any number of factors. Most of us have been playing (and defending) grassroots games for years... what's arrogant is to come in and start shoveling crap like this around. The 'campaign against grassroots' is a fabricated lie based on spin and perception, and I for one am sick of hearing it. If you (and others) want to keep blaming others for the failures of various 'grassroots' PMs, that's your choice. But don't expect those of us who have cared for and nurtured this genre from its inception to sit back and take it.

Lewis the Second wrote:
It's the forum-posting equivelant of ARGN's decision to tag a 'warning' onto every indie game launched.

You want the YMMV tag removed from ARGN? Talk to ARGN about it. This has been discussed in other META threads and I guess some people just can't accept the answers given. Of course, I guess if ARG games would stop fizzling out after two hours/days/weeks it would make a difference.

I reiterate the point about Rose and her continued commitment to grassroots ARGs. Thanks imbri.

And, for those of you who keep throwing this term out there, make damn sure you know what it means before you accuse people of doing the opposite.

Lewis the Second wrote:
Come on. This is a community. Let's make it look like one.

Wow. So a community can't have differences in opinions? A community can't be disgruntled when something goes badly? I don't want to be a part of any community that conforms to one standard, or coddles the failures, thank you very much. And that probably makes me 'arrogant' and 'elitist', right? Right...

Abbot_Beryl wrote:
I'm just sad, that after going on about how the game is for the players, that I've only just now realized what kind of players we're trying to go out on a limb to entertain.

Oh? And what kinds of players are those? The kinds of players that expect a game to survive past its first week? The kinds of players that feel that preparedness and dedication aren't just buzzwords when talking about Puppetmastery? Or is it the kinds of players that have their own opinions? I've had the pleasure (or lack thereof) to experience a few PM-type people who feel that their game is more important than the people playing it, and that oppositional opinions need not apply. So maybe it's fair that I'm sad, after being a part of such a wonderful, cohesive community for so many years, that I'm constantly reminded what lengths the egotists will go to make their mark.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:33 pm
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Abbot_Beryl
Greenhorn

Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 5

 		No, no worries. I understand what's going on, and I'm not taking any of it personally. Too exhausted too, frankly. Wink Most importantly, I just want to see a change, hopefully in a humane fashion. Very Happy

I've realized now that the remark I made that jamesi commented came out quite wrong and I retract the statement.

I'm not sure there's much more that I can do other than my little input, and story, but in the end I think an explanation and confession like mine is a bit more helpful than just telling people what not to.

(By the way... I'm officially no longer replying to this thread, so, have fun! I wish you all the best.)

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:39 pm
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yanka
Fickle


Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 1214
Location: undesirable
krystyn wrote:
Lewis the Second wrote:
There's an inane trend of slagging off the very concept of Grassroots at the moment...

Wow, that's simply not true.


Lewis the Second wrote:
Maybe I was a little harsh and exaggerative, but it certainly is happening, and it isn't healthy.

I'm sorry, but I'm so tired of seeing this misapplied, flawed, and uber-over-generalized assertion. As Ehsan wrote here, "we" are slagging off games that SUCK. So far, all the recent ones happen to be "grassroots", but frankly, I wish that we would stop labeling them thus (grassroots), as that is an insult to a number of grassroots PMs who have produced some of the best and most memorable games of the genre. Well, I suppose I shouldn't be speaking for them, but it is an insult to me personally, for example. ImNSho, the best, most professional, and most talented PM team to-date has been a grassroots one.

There is a difference between a game that is put on by a professional (yes, professional), talented, non-compensated PM team and a game that SUCKS.

In light of that, I'm not sure I share your concern. If you're concerned with the "inane trend of slagging off the very concept of Grassroots at the moment", then you can probably stop - nobody is gonna slag off a Karetao game simply because they've put it on "for the love of the game", I'm very certain of it. If you're concerned with the "inane trend of slagging off the very concept of GAMES THAT SUCK at the moment", then you should probably ask yourself just why you would expect people to not slag off games that suck.

EDIT: whoa, SpaceBass and jamesi sad the same thing, but much better, before I hit "submit".
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:43 pm
Last edited by yanka on Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lewis the Second
Decorated

Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 198

 		Forget I said anything. I jumped in too quickly based only on what I've seen a couple of times.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:46 pm
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addlepated
Unfictologist


Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 1885
Location: Austin, Texas
imbri wrote:
It hurts because it causes every potential player and every potential investor to question the validity of the next game they see.


Amen. I got excited. Hell, I even registered the chat room, which I don't think I've ever done as a player. 24 hours later, there's a message saying the game's been pulled. I am just so damned tired of trying to immerse myself into a game and running headlong into a brick wall of PM unpreparedness or shoddy workmanship (and now I'm not talking solely about Gypsysoft, so I hope you don't take what I am saying as personally as you took others' comments).

You can better believe that I have become jaded, and next time a trailhead is discovered in whatever manner I will detach myself from getting involved until the game has proven itself. I don't care whether anyone thinks that's fair to THEM. It was not fair to ME to dangle so many carrots before my eyes and then snatch them away with no reward. And in the meantime I'm likely to miss out on some fantastic experiences and less likely ever to be fully immersed in a game simply because I am too gunshy to let myself be.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:47 pm
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be
addlepated wrote:
And in the meantime I'm likely to miss out on some fantastic experiences and less likely ever to be fully immersed in a game simply because I am too gunshy to let myself be.


For me - gunshy and too busy. There's no possible way to follow every launch and invest oneself long enough to decide which game will not simply survive, but also be interesting, immersive and clever. You would think that if a game was really turning out to be enjoyable and a "fantastic experience", that the players of the ARG would speak up loudly. Unfortunately I don't see much of that. The PMs can't obviously come out and say "Hey everybody look what we're doing! You're missing out!". So the question is, why don't more players do that? I see any occasional "ARG X is great. Who's playing it?" in chat, but nothing more substantial than that.

Is there not a venue that they feel they can speak up ? Are they scared of being flamed? Do they not care if more players participate? I wish there was some sort of snapshot of games available somewhere. We have reviews after the games are finished, but nothing that could help us look at the ARGs currently playing. It's near impossible for anyone to be able to follow and review every single game, but some of the active players could probably easily do it for the one game they are playing. I think it would be really nice if we could have a 2-week review or something. Anything so that people could take a quick look and know what the games are about.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:25 pm
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