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 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC: Silver Puzzle Cards
[PUZZLE] #241 Silver - T-L-P
Moderators: AnthraX101, bagsbee, BrianEnigma, cassandra, Giskard, lhall, Mikeyj, myf, poozle, RobMagus, xnbomb
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Brevity
Boot

Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 22

 		[PUZZLE] #241 Silver - T-L-P
I got this card in the first pack I bought, but surprisingly no one has posted about it yet. Note also that there are 66 cards listed in the card catalog, which is believed to be the number of total cards available in the first wave. This card is not listed in the catalog, which seems to suggest that there are more than 66 cards out there right now....

This card is in the Silver Star Set and the text on the front reads:

"What proposition does the following diagram represent?"

The card also lists a Guest Puzzle Architect {Andrew McCarthy}

Finally, there is a 10 of spades in the bottom left corner of the card as well.

I don't have a scanner at home and the ones we have at work will only do black and white. At the risk of getting in trouble, I'm going to post a very crappy digital picture of the front of the card just to give a vague idea of what it looks like. It looks like 60dpi scans are the accepted method of posting, but to me it is more about the quality of the reproduction than the method, so correct if I'm wrong and please remove the image. I'm hoping to post a better or at least safer image once I get access to a color scanner, or maybe someone will beat me to it and can replace this one.

Here we go...
tlp.PNG
 Description   Silver Star Set #241 T-L-P
 Filesize   197KB
 Viewed   387 Time(s)

tlp.PNG

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:33 am
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SteveC
Unfettered


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 381

 		What are the letters in the various places? Little clue so far, more info can only help!

However, generally it appears as if it could be related to the form of logic outlined in Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus by Wittgenstein. A kind of first principles theory of thought. I base that purely on the TqF, TpF TrF that I think I can make out on the diagram.

Not being a philosopher, I'm not really that hot on Wittgenstein's exact meaning or applications... Maybe you know someone who is?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:46 am
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Tomby
Boot

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 29
Location: Sydney, Australia
Quote:
However, generally it appears as if it could be related to the form of logic outlined in Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus by Wittgenstein.


Seems to be right on the money.

The diagram looks a bit like the last diagram on this page:

http://www.kfs.org/~jonathan/witt/t6120en.html

but left and right reversed. It's hard to tell without knowing what the letters are exactly.

EDIT: SO it appears to be upside down and left/right reversed

So this could be the answer...but the rest of the text doesn't make much sense to me Embarassed BUT

The proposition in the figure is ~(p . ~q), so we need to work out what this should change to given the transformation of the figure upside down and L/R reversed.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:41 am
Last edited by Tomby on Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:50 am; edited 3 times in total
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Brevity
Boot

Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 22

 		I haven't even begun to try and solve this one yet, but it sounds like you've found something fairly relevant. It is hard to describe the letters and their positions, but I'll do my best and hopefully you can recreate the drawing.

At the top of the figure, there is a "T" connected by a downward line to an "F".

On the right side of the figure, from top to bottom, there is a letter "F" connected by a line to a set of three letters "T Q F", connected by one more straight line to the letter "T".

On the bottom of the figure, there is a "T" connected downward to an "F".

On the left side of the figure there is a set of three letters, "T P F"

There are no "R"s on the diagram.

Hope this helps...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:42 am
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Brevity
Boot

Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 22

 		I think you are right. I can make out the letters clearly and the image on the card is the same as the image you have found but flipped horizontally AND vertically. This places all letters and orientations in the same exact positions as the example you found Smile

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:50 am
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tanner
Entrenched


Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 875
Location: (x,y,z,t,i, ...)+

 		i think it might be

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
The Law of Contradiction


but that seems too simple for a silver card
_________________
tanner³ -- Join the PXC team on SETI@home
"And the princess and the prince discuss what's real and what is not,
But it doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden" - BD

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:50 am
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Brevity
Boot

Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 22
Quote:
The proposition in the figure is ~(p . ~q), so we need to work out what this should change to given the transformation of the figure upside down and L/R reversed.


No, I think that you were right the first time. The image on the card and the image that you found are the same image. One is just rotated 180 degrees on the horizontal and vertical axes. This does not change the order of the propositional parameters in any way, so nothing should change.

Quote:
but that seems too simple for a silver card


Yeah, but we probably weren't supposed to find the exact same picture with an explanation of what proposition it represented. Actually working this out would be more difficult....

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:59 am
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Tomby
Boot

Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 29
Location: Sydney, Australia
tanner wrote:
i think it might be

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
The Law of Contradiction


but that seems too simple for a silver card


Yes, I don't think that is correct:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
From the website the Law of Contradiction is ~(p . ~p), but the diagram shows the proposition ~(p . ~q)


PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:01 am
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tanner
Entrenched


Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 875
Location: (x,y,z,t,i, ...)+

 		oh sorry -- i cant read the letters

EDIT -- aaaaah -- just checked that link to the other diagram -- i see now
_________________
tanner³ -- Join the PXC team on SETI@home
"And the princess and the prince discuss what's real and what is not,
But it doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden" - BD

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:04 am
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Brevity
Boot

Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 22

 		I also think it is very important to note that Andrew McCarthy is the star of the hit movie "Mannequin" from the late 1980s Laughing

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:12 am
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BrianEnigmaModerator
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Joined: 05 Oct 2003
Posts: 1199
Location: Pacific Northwest

 		If it is not the law previously referenced in the thread, might it be The Law of C_____ because of the card's title? On the other hand, T-L-P could just be a play on T.L.C. or Tender Loving Care.
_________________
Y0 Resources / VP Wiki / PXC Catalog / Metacortex

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:17 am
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NovacaineX
Decorated


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 289
Location: Ohio - New York, USA

 		I'm going to be honest here, I have no idea what this is and probably never will. But I figured I'd lend my photoshop skills and make you guys a high resolution diagram. I have no idea if this is useful or even necessary, but I'm addicted to photoshop and couldn't resist.
241-diagram.jpg
 Description   
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241-diagram.jpg

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:17 am
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tanner
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Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 875
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 		~(P AND ~Q) == (P AND Q)


but whats the law Smile

edit --- superceded by checking again Very Happy
_________________
tanner³ -- Join the PXC team on SETI@home
"And the princess and the prince discuss what's real and what is not,
But it doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden" - BD

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:34 am
Last edited by tanner on Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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dusty2229
Veteran


Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 128
Location: London

 		Re: [PUZZLE] #241 Silver - T-L-P
Brevity wrote:
This card is not listed in the catalog, which seems to suggest that there are more than 66 cards out there right now....


No. It's not on the catalog because you haven't uploaded it there yet is all.
Could you upload it there and scan the back map piece in as well (even if its only a bit of sky or grass). Ta.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:36 am
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NovacaineX
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 289
Location: Ohio - New York, USA
Quote:
No. It's not on the catalog because you haven't uploaded it there yet is all.


I think what he was saying is that the catalog has 66 cards, which was thought to be the total amount in existence, but he has the 67th card, which shows that there are more than 66 total.

But this doesn't take into account that the catalog has e3 cards, as well as the 333 cards, which may or may not make it into the final deck.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:44 am
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