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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » GROUP READ: Daughters of Freya (Aug. 1-23)
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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Location: South of where I used to be

Codini wrote:

How I found this: You commented on my blog, remember?

http://nickciske.com/blog/2005/06/09/the-daughters-of-freya/


/me waves

I thought your url looked familiar - my favorite binary translator! Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:01 pm
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
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Codini wrote:
Heh. I'm already confused, but that could be the fatigue and caffiene. Wink

How I found this: You commented on my blog, remember?

http://nickciske.com/blog/2005/06/09/the-daughters-of-freya/

My ARG history: I played the beast a bit but didn't have time to help out too much. I played the first few episodes of Majestic but quit after the Flash break in game tilted my cheese meter a little too far. Wink

I'm hoping to get back into it and maybe build my own someday... maybe.


Ah, right! Well, welcome back. Too bad you missed out on ILB (same group as the Beast).
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:27 pm
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Phaedra
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Codini wrote:
Heh. I'm already confused, but that could be the fatigue and caffiene. Wink


In that case, ask and you shall receive.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:48 pm
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addlepated
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Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 1885
Location: Austin, Texas

Varin wrote:
I thought your url looked familiar - my favorite binary translator! Wink

Heh! Mine too. Very Happy

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:04 pm
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addlepated
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Joined: 17 Aug 2003
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Couple of items of feedback so far:

- It would be nice if the dates on the messages correlated to current dates. I think it would add a nice sense of immediacy, that the story is taking place in the now and you are really watching it play out.

- I'm not so big on the political stuff. I know it's probably character development, but as has been discussed on the board earlier, it tends to rip me out of the fiction and yank me into the real world, which sort of negates the issue. Others have an opposite reaction. I have a feeling it has to do with your own personal viewpoints, as well.

- I'm getting a strange CSS declaration at the top of the mails: "
#mystyle5 { color: black; } #mystyle5 td,p { font-size: 16px; font-family: arial; color: black; } #mystyle5 a { text-decoration: underline; font-weight: bold; color: blue; } #mystyle5 a:hover { text-decoration: underline; font-weight: bold; color: red; }"

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:38 pm
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Phaedra
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addlepated wrote:
Couple of items of feedback so far:

- It would be nice if the dates on the messages correlated to current dates. I think it would add a nice sense of immediacy, that the story is taking place in the now and you are really watching it play out.


This I agree with.

addlepated wrote:
- I'm not so big on the political stuff. I know it's probably character development, but as has been discussed on the board earlier, it tends to rip me out of the fiction and yank me into the real world, which sort of negates the issue. Others have an opposite reaction. I have a feeling it has to do with your own personal viewpoints, as well.


This I don't.

While I can see good reasons for keeping politics out of an ARG, I don't see it as a necessity for something like this, in which there is no actual interactivity.

That's like saying characters in a book aren't allowed to have political opinions, when political opinions are arguably as much an important part of character development as their family and background.

In this case, I feel its especially appropriate considering the subject matter. With a sex cult like this, it's more likely to be the small, not-so-mainstream magazines that would report on it. And unlike major newspapers and magazines, which can at least pretend to have no agenda beyond reporting the news (although anyone who watches The Daily Show is unlikely to believe that Rolling Eyes ), smaller magazines and newspapers generally have to appeal to a particular niche market.

The two types of publication that are likely to be interested in this story would be 1) very liberal magazines -- either political/cultural ones, or new agey/occult ones; and 2) very conservative magazines.

The reaction of conservative magazines, and indeed their very reason for picking up the story would be, IMANSHO, as a sort of "look at how degenerate our culture is becoming" wake-up call.

Ergo, for this particular subject, I think a liberal magazine would be less likely to sensationalize it quite as much, since female-led sex cults are presumably less automatically offensive to liberals than to conservatives.

That said, if this were an ARG, I would agree with you that a character with obvious political opinions is probably unnecessarily dangerous -- considering the level of player involvement in the storyline in most ARGs, characters tend to serve a much more manipulative function than the average character in non-interactive fiction.

For example, in ILB, we were supposed to be willing to do anything to protect the Sleeping Princess, and that willingness would be used to cause us to drive the plot in a certain direction. Of course, weephun effectively short-circuited that plan by handing her over at the first opportunity, but I digress... Twisted Evil

So, because it can be vital that certain characters inspire certain reactions among your audience, you probably don't want to risk alienating, say, conservative players by making a character you need your audience to identify and sympathize with, say, a fire-breathing liberal. (I actually talked a great deal about this during ILB and afterward regarding why Melissa, Dana and the Sleeping Princess all more or less had to be female.)

In non-interactive fiction, making sure that your audience has a certain, predetermined reaction to characters is far less important.

At this point, Samantha is not so much someone we need to care about or sympathize with as she is our prospective pair of eyes to see the cult through, so I don't see any reason why she can't have an obvious political affiliation.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:53 pm
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Dorkmaster
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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I shouldn't even comment, as I just received the three email preview, and am NOT participating in the groupread.... However, I wanted to add my commentary to at least those first three emails:

For something innovative like this, I feel that the email addresses should NOT work, but the websites should. Obviously, it's really impossible to deal with the potential of massive email attacks if everyone in the game tried to communicate. It just would bring the story down. You can't account for that (unless it's a true ARG (^-^)) But, having at least a one page placeholder for each referenced website or domain should be there, as the whole idea is that this is real and you are "eavesdropping".

So if I want to check out west coast publishing or whatever it was, then there should be a west coast website... Doesn't have to be detailed, or even necessarily "good" It just needs to be there.

Also, in terms of the dates: This is the #1 reason I am NOT doing this for money... It wouldn't be too hard (especially in a groupread when EVERYONE gets the emails at the same time!!!) to date the emails for the appropriate time. I also don't see why you couldn't "bot" it somehow so it always cranks out the appropriate months or whatever even in a non-collective reading. But the point with this is that it is the single most contributor to a dissolution of my suspension of disbelief...

In short, it makes it less immersive by far. Everyone checks the dates of emails. That's how we know sometimes if they're new or important. So to use this medium effectively, they need to put more emphasis in making the experience "feel right".

Again, I'm not bashing. I really like the concept and I think the fee is appropriate, and I'm sure the story is genuinely good! I just can't get over these couple of humps that I feel are just too integral for them to have missed.

Sorry to be a downer though. I sincerely hope you all enjoy it and I hope I am proven totally wrong by those who truly get immersed in it despite what I've said!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:12 pm
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Phaedra
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Dorkmaster wrote:
I shouldn't even comment, as I just received the three email preview, and am NOT participating in the groupread.... However, I wanted to add my commentary to at least those first three emails:


Hmm, as usual, ouyay yenahay Razz , I agree with some of what you've said and disagree with a lot else.

I guess the difference comes in how we're viewing this. A lot of people are using words like "immersive."

There's an argument to be made that all fiction should be "immersive," but as the word has a more technical meaning around here Wink I guess I'd argue that this doesn't have to be immersive in the sense that an ARG is, and if that's what you were expecting, I'm not surprised you're disappointed.

When I heard "story told by email," I expected it to be, essentially, a serial story. Like the ones told in magazines. The sort where you expect a certain amount of anticipation because you can't control the speed at which you read (which is part of the fun -- I mean, I have very little willpower when it comes to stories; if something grabs my interest, I'll likely read it in one sitting even if it takes me an entire day grr stupid Frank Herbert, but anticipation is fun, so I appreciate it when the story format forces me to slow down).

Also, when I heard it was a story told by email, I expected something along the lines of, say, Dracula -- a story told through correspondence.

This is a combination of the two genres.

Neither is "immersive" in the sense we use the term here, and I don't think DOF ever claimed to be. It's not an ARG. Therefore, while having the email dates correspond to the real dates would be cool, I don't see why it would be necessary.

I don't see why it would "throw one out of the story," or "ruin the suspension of disbelief."

I mean, the dates of "letters" or "journal entries" in novels don't correspond to the real ones, even if they're also told in serial format.

We're not actually being emailed by these characters, nor are we supposed to feel like we are (otherwise the sender wouldn't be "Email Mystery" and we wouldn't have emails from multiple characters within one email), so why is it necessary that the dates be current? These are just emails from an event that we, as the audience, are being allowed to read after the fact, much as if they were collected in a book.

I don't know -- I just don't see how many of the complaints I'm reading can be expected to apply to something that's not immersive (in the technical sense) and not claiming to be. It's not an ARG. It's not even "immersive fiction." It's just serial fiction told in a correspondence format.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that nothing in the "reality" of the story indicates it's happening in real time, rather than at some point in the past, and I don't see why it would need to attempt to create such a story-reality. There isn't any interactivity -- why is there a need for real-time?

That said, I do think it would be very cool if they decided to do something more immersive, in which case the criticism would become highly relevant.

Dorkmaster wrote:
For something innovative like this, I feel that the email addresses should NOT work, but the websites should.


This I agree with wholeheartedly. These aren't characters we're supposed to be able to communicate with, so having real email addresses seems like a recipe for a headache.

That said, again, I think it would be cool if the authors did want to do something more immersive. I don't see any reason why immersive fiction absolutely has to be a collective endeavor (note: "immersive fiction," not ARGs), or why it has to take place over a specified time period rather than whenever people sign up (if it's a solitary experience).

Dorkmaster wrote:
But, having at least a one page placeholder for each referenced website or domain should be there, as the whole idea is that this is real and you are "eavesdropping".


See, again we differ here. I wasn't expecting to "eavesdrop" as it happens -- it seems to me like a normal correspondence-story, in which you're reading the correspondence after the fact, but told in serial format. So I didn't expect to feel like I was eavesdropping in real time.

That said, it's still trying to create a sense of reality, that this did happen, and therefore I agree that the domains should be real.

Dorkmaster wrote:
So if I want to check out west coast publishing or whatever it was, then there should be a west coast website... Doesn't have to be detailed, or even necessarily "good" It just needs to be there.


Funny story -- I seemed to recall hearing a Left Coast magazine referenced long before this, and immediately thought, "Oh, how daring of them to use a real magazine!"

I guess I must have remembered the name incorrectly.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:03 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
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It is entirely possible that the dates of these e-mails correspond to the mystery itself, and so are entirely relevant, if not 'realistic' or 'immersive' in general ARGish terms.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:11 pm
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Phaedra
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<chuckle>

Maybe we should have labeled this a META thread. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:00 pm
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Phaedra
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Well, article written, plans to move on to a new subject made.

That was short. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:20 pm
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Codini
Greenhorn


Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 5
Location: Minneapolis MN

gumps.com

Finally a real website!

http://gumps.com

I wonder if they paid a promitional consideration, or if the creators are just big fans?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:16 pm
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addlepated
Unfictologist


Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 1885
Location: Austin, Texas

You know, as someone who's written a few back-dated blogs for various games, I really appreciate all the nice detail the Daughters of Freya story has. It's a real pain sometimes to make sure all your story and character milestone dates match up, and they have done a great job with it.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:49 pm
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