unforum

[bill]

PM Discussion: Promoting Your Game Without A Metasite

[zeldafan8626]

I'm already there =D

[Crowfoot]

I'll try to be there, it sounds like fun!

[bill]

Edit: Tidy log posted. http://tinyurl.com/c95vh
I'll have a cleaned up log later on deaddrop.us. For now, here's the unedited log.

I ran out of colors, so sorry if anyone didn't get a fancy font
[quote]<catherwood> btw, what helped decide the topic for today?
<bill> i was talking with taozero a couple of weeks ago
<bill> since he's the only other person who lurks here regularly, I asked him if there was a topic he was interested in discussing
<catherwood> it's a good one
<bill> yeah
<catherwood> while we watch yet another countdown site
<bill> tough nut to crack that
<bill> heh
<LBoomer> lol
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<bill> personally, I think I'm leaning more towards the use of metasites
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<bill> but that's not our topic
<catherwood> for external promotion, or in-game use?
<bill> external promotion
<bill> i see a couple of huge issues with stealth launches
<LBoomer> ditto
<bill> first, I think people really want some clear statement that "this is a game"
<bill> without it, they kind of waffle on the edges
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<catherwood> how would you like to run today's chat? random questions might stray.
<bill> I figured open discussion would be best
<bill> although I created the channel, I really don't want to take charge or anything, just keep the conversation moving and civil
<dmax> Bill, interesting: "This is a game. This is not a game. Ceci ne'st pas une pipe."
<catherwood> obvious first case is The Beast, using movie trailer for a rabbit hole, yet no real promotion of the game as a game.
<catherwood> no metasite to say "story so far, thanks for joining", was there?
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<bill> big budget productions with highly visible rabbit holes are special cases
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<Crowfoot> Nearly missed it
<catherwood> just wanted to clarify promotion is not the same as a visible rabbit hole at all.
<catherwood> promotion says, "come here for a game", right?
<bill> for something
<catherwood> and with the A.I. movie trailers, it wasn't even visible to the casual viewer
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<dmax> (just the geeks, the target)
<bill> do you think part of the success of the Beast was the clear tie-in to Spielberg?
* catherwood didn't play The Beast and can't really comment
<bill> me neither. Sadly, it was before my time
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<catherwood> i thought it was the WTF factor
<catherwood> which is enhanced by NOT having a metasite to explain itself
<Ehsan> I was there in time for "the beast" trailer thingy
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<bill> was anyone here around for the early for the early parts of Beast?
<Ehsan> the reason it was so appealing is that it was new, at least to me.. for the first time a movie tied into my little internet world
<bill> how long did it take you to fall in with Cloudmakers?
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<bill> (assuming you did)
<Ehsan> it didn't get me to play though.. i just looked at it like it was a very nice idea, but didn't really understand what was to follow
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<bill> so you didn't play?
<catherwood> Ehsan, me too. I might have stayed if i knew what to expect.
<Ehsan> no, I checked back on the meta sites every few days..
<dmax> that's what made Push (my first) appealing: the uniqueness and the tie-in to something that interested me: the net
<bill> i had the same experience with Alias
<Ehsan> but never felt "involved" .. just needed to digest the whole thing
<catherwood> Push,NV sucked me in with the cash prize :/
* Liqidcrack coughs
<bill> "Gee, I wonder if the Rambaldi guy is real." /me heads to google
<Ehsan> I think association is very important for a rabbit-hole
<bill> assocation with something known?
<Ehsan> hey this is related to A.I. .. good .. hey this is related to the new Matrix movie.. very good...
<Ehsan> hey this is registered by Microsoft! OMG!
<catherwood> and again, i'll ask, does the rabbithole need to be the same as external promotion of the game?
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<dmax> see, that tie-in thing implies that there's money and quality - but I also think that I"m just being advertised to
<dmax> which turns me quickly off
<dmax> e.g., NoahBoddy which ended abruptly with the message: "Thanks for playing this far. Watch the movie when it's made."
<bill> I don't mind being advertised to as long as I'm entertained and feel like I have control over the experience
<bill> What about Joe PuppetMaster without the big $$$ tie-in
<Liqidcrack> he's screwed
<bill> Assuming he/she wants a tight curtain, how do you make your game known without either IMing hkdl or sending a cryptic message to steve?
<dmax> I refuse to listen to music by small name bands. Only the Stones and REM for me. The others are screwed.
<catherwood> i'm reminded of the shills during Push,NV going to skateboarding sites to "promote" the "game"
<Ehsan> you can have a fake tie-in a la metacortechs
<dmax> No one without a lot of money and backing can make good music.
<dmax> Takes too much money.
<Ehsan> by the time players figure out it's unofficial, they are hooked to your hopefully good design
<Liqidcrack> fake tie ins to real products come back to the point of having to rely on something you didn't create.
<taozero> not only that, but if you go to far to make the tie-in, you could run into legal problems
<bill> i wonder about player backlash if they feel 'tricked'
<taozero> too*
<Ehsan> i know some people stopped playing MU .. but a lot more hung around, because even though the rest of the game wasn't directly movie related, it was still fun and interesting
<Liqidcrack> but is there a difference to fake tie ins and "fan fiction" and more importantly can players tell the difference and what would be the response to either?
<catherwood> a metasite can be a boost to promote the game after it's well underway, but perhaps isn't so good to have at the launch.
<Ehsan> so the rabbithole in this case was "Bait"
<imbri> hey all
<dmax> as long as there's no pain with the "...and Switch" part of that equation...
<taozero> hey imbri
<Ehsan> hiya imbri
<dmax> hey imbri
<bill> hi imb!
<imbri> i must find caffeine and drugs, but will be back shortly
<imbri> but meta sites = good, imo
<taozero> I believe that if you go with the bait and switch method, you need to consult a lawyer - to avoid any possible legal issues
<Liqidcrack> but having a metasite up front is the one thing a grassroots campaign. If you can show you've garnered enough interest from it you can shop for a sponsor to plop all of the metasite and if you're genius work in advertisements into other parts of the game for said sponsor
<imbri> no meta site = good
<catherwood> using MU as an example...I don't remember any metasite. But there was the countdown page.
<imbri> just depends what you're after
<bill> i think the upside to using an existing franchise and going forward as a fan fiction piece has a nice advantage because you have an audience that can experience that "WTF factor"
<catherwood> if a countdown page says, "coming soon, a game", that's different than, "metacortechs is announcing a new website soon"
<Ehsan> the only problem is that fan fiction is illegal in the united states
<Liqidcrack> no it's not
<Ehsan> i'm pretty sure it is
<bill> OT
<catherwood> for profit, maybe, but not for fun
<bill> we can talk about that another day after we line up some IP lawyers to debate it
<taozero> yeah, lol
<bill> legal or not, it happens
<catherwood> Chasing the Wish started with a metasite, a countdown to start of "yes this is a game", etc. Was that any better promotion?
<taozero> without a meta site, I feel that any 'advertising' must come in an in-game fashion
<Ehsan> totally agree
<taozero> sorta like PPC and the ads they ran
<bill> it seemed to generate a lot of interest and it used a storyline with no obvious tie-ins to anything big
<taozero> yep
<catherwood> and can that kind of pre-launch advertising continue to work post-launch?
<bill> so using Metacortechs a model, their rabbit hole was ingame, yet still built up some anticipation
<catherwood> for PxC, the "lost cube" posters still lead to a good front door, and still ingame
<taozero> beyond newspaper ads, which are sometimes pricey, and therefore out of reach for lots of grassroots ventures, what else can be done?
<taozero> (other than posting on UF, lol)
<catherwood> but putting an asteroid up on eBay can't work for the duration of the game, can it?
<bill> i think something most people don't really do is spend time thinking about who their audience is. Assuming the existing players at UF and IU are it is a mistake
<taozero> *exactly*
<taozero> you have to try and market the game to the 'outside' (imo)
<bill> so, considering the theme of your game and how you intend it to play out, who else could you target?
<Liqidcrack> assuming anything other than you're going to work your ass off is a mistake
<bill> heh
<bill> no doubt about that
<Ehsan> right.. it so depends on who your audience is..
<Liqidcrack> depends on the theme. that defines audience. which defines channels
<bill> should we pick one at random and see what we might come up with?
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<catherwood> channels, such as random message boards? Is shilling bad, if it non-for-profit?
<Ehsan> that would be fun
<taozero> how about we just try and make stuff up?
<Liqidcrack> channels = methods of communication
<taozero> I'm sure everyone's had an idea of what would be cool to do
<catherwood> slip an audio ad onto dmax radio
<bill> heh
<bill> i'm pretty enamored with the idea of podcasting right now
* taozero is not familiar with that
<chippy> use the viral marketing tools, funny games, strange videos, weird websites
<bill> the podcasts I've listened to have been, um, easy to exceed in terms of production quality
<Ehsan> i just feel that the best way to promote the rabbithole IS the rabbithole itself..
<taozero> how do you publicize your podcast, though?
<bill> there are networks where you can promote them
<taozero> yes, Ehsan, but how do you let people know where the rabbithole is?
<Ehsan> it doesnt matter if the players find it through a google ad or an email or a honey jar
<bill> yeah, chicken and egg problem
<taozero> nowadays you can make a website and never have it discovered....ever
<bill> good point
<Ehsan> anonymous tip to argn if you can't think of anything.. why should it matter if the actual site is amazing
<Ehsan> however, don't send me to a countdown timer.. that'll piss me off
<taozero> well then you are just publicizing it to the existing ARG community - which is fine, if that's your goal
<catherwood> Ehsan, promoting the rabbithole pre-launch is different than promoting the game to latecomers, right?
<taozero> but if you want to actually draw new people in....
<Liqidcrack> publicizing anything imo comes down to how can i take as many people in an area and make them go, "WTF was that?" and then go looking for something that might help them understand what they just saw or heard.
<Ehsan> right.. so it depends on 1- your audience and 2- promoting pre-launch or post-launch
<catherwood> even if people miss the initial rabbithole, i think you want to lure them in later too.
<bill> i agree
<Ehsan> ok can we case study?
<catherwood> and that's where a metasite might be a nice place to funnel them, but only after the game is well underway.
<bill> cath, like A3 did?
<Ehsan> art of the heist.. so many ads on so many sites...
<bill> er, AotH
<bill> they spent a few $$
<catherwood> even ILB didn't use Dana's blog for chapter summaries for at least a month, if i recall
<Ehsan> but they didn't get half as many players as ourcolony...
<Liqidcrack> post launch advertising has to come from someone other than the people doing the work. If it comes from the team running the game it's almost less than fulfilling na dit takes away resources for responses to in game problems
<catherwood> Liqidcrack, would you let the playerbase do the post-launch promotions?
<Liqidcrack> word of mouth sure
<Liqidcrack> that's the name of the game
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<bill> comes back to having enough players to make that happen
<LBoomer> well, for Wildfire, we actually had the players advertise the game through a poster assignment
<bill> having a good game and no players willing to make a trail/guide just sucks
<taozero> yes it does
<Liqidcrack> i've gone off the deep end. Next project I launch I don't care if I get 5 or 500 players. Execution is my goal. Build it. Play it. Rub your eyes when it's over and say, "that was cool. you guys should have played it"
<bill> and marketing to outside audiences, you may find they don't know they need one until it becomes a monumental task
<taozero> I think a lot of that comes back to game quality. but sometimes you can have a real good game, and there just isn't the interest
<Liqidcrack> tao, exactly
<dmax> LiquidCrack - I already did that. I had this awesome series of sites
<dmax> great persona
<dmax> music
<dmax> swag
<dmax> but none of you played it
<Liqidcrack> sorry bro
<dmax> but it was great
<Liqidcrack> city of heroes got me
<dmax> it was about this tree falling in the forest
<dmax> and no one heard it
<taozero> sorry :/
<taozero> lol
<Liqidcrack> 0 played it?
* dmax waits for folks to get the analogy
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<Liqidcrack> if 0 played it then you're screwed. if 2 played it and liked it, in my case I'm happy.
<catherwood> right, what's the point without an audience?
<bill> what do you guys think of doing what Wildfire did and using the players to spread the word?
<Liqidcrack> yes.. i'd love to hear this poster thing
<bill> leo, can you elaborate?
<LBoomer> Well, the game revolved around the players "working" for 1 of two companies
<LBoomer> so as a work assignment we had them create their own flyers to advertise the co. that they were working for
<bill> the players were really into it iirc
<LBoomer> and then had an interoffice contest in which they had to submit pictures of them putting them up in public places
<LBoomer>
<catherwood> similar to the ant stickers for OurColony
<taozero> how effective was that?
<LBoomer> we got great pics, and a pretty decent feedback
<taozero> any verifiable new players?
<LBoomer> I think if we could have implemented it on a bit of a larger scale , it would have done a lot better
<LBoomer> never verified
<taozero> I think that's an important part to keep in mind
<LBoomer> we didn't want to break curtain asking why they joined
<taozero> you actually have to pull people in
<LBoomer>
<taozero> understandable, LBoomer
<taozero>
<LBoomer> but the idea had some merit
<taozero> and even if you got one more player, it was certainly cost effective (since you didn't spend any money on it - the players did)
<bill> it's a great way to get people more involved too
<taozero> what was that one ARG that had people recruiting new players, and everyone got po'd?
<LBoomer> we also placed initial posters around college's and coffeehouses and such before launch
<bill> Search4E made missing persons posters for players to distribute
<bill> they created them as PDF files for download
<catherwood> Bill, what was the motivation for the players to even do that?
<taozero> wasn't it that unholy movie thing?
<taozero> they wanted a certain amount of unique visitors to their site, if I remember correctly
<bill> cath, we wanted the game to do well
<LBoomer> well, creating the motivation is the trick
<bill> they also paid for ads on some social/dating networks
<bill> probably 50% of S4e players came in through those ads and the posters
<taozero> really?
<taozero> nice
<bill> but ads are $$$
<taozero> yeah
<bill> lc mentioned getting sponsors to pay for that kind of thing
<bill> without a metasite, is that even possible?
<imbri> yes
<bill> how?
<imbri> i mean you could do some business trade stuff
<Liqidcrack> then at the end thank then for their help and sponsorship of certain in game devices
<Liqidcrack> automated calling was donated by ....
<imbri> exactly
<catherwood> Push,NV had its ingame newsletter with ads from Toyota and Sprint, and i wouldn't call that a metasite at all, totally ingame
<bill> haha yah
<imbri> or use their product (a friend may have just created some cool new widget... use it and promote its use in game, etc)
<bill> the toyota microsite for the Push dealership was great
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<catherwood> PxC kinda is at a disadvantage there, since the story doesn't take place on Earth, so Earth sponsors can't logically advertising on their sites.
<Liqidcrack> problem is getting businesses to donate to something like this without a metasite or cold hard facts about traffic, players, etc they usually pass
<LBoomer> true LC
<imbri> we got that email program given to us in mu
<imbri> just sent the guy and email asking if we could have a free license
<imbri> he said sure, just give me credit at the end
<LBoomer> it definitely helps grease the wheels if you have solid numbers to show the firms ahead of time
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<imbri> that's different than getting money
<imbri> heck, we didn't even really tell him what it was for, just that it was a funky game thing and there might be a couple eyes on it
<bill> I'm not hearing a lot of positive thoughts for grassroots games getting a good start. Do you guys think the possibility of getting a good start is that bleak?
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<bill> imbri, sounds like you were dealing with a small company if you emailed the owner directly
<imbri> yep
<imbri> well it was the english speaking guy that worked there
<dmax> haha
<catherwood> is it really vital to have a lot of eyeballs catching the pre-launch? especially if there isn't much action at the start?
<bill> what about pregames?
<Liqidcrack> blech
<imbri> small companies tend to help each other out when they can, so keep that in mind
<bill> CTW kind of started that trend
* catherwood hates pregames
<Liqidcrack> i've sworn of redheads and pregames
<bill> heh
<taozero> I, personally, dislike pregames
<dmax> weird fun: the sense of herd mentality at the beginning of CTW
<imbri> strifey and i had a good debate about pregames/prelaunches/softlaunches in uf the otherday
<dmax> not fun: the herd outracing me to discover sites and contact people before I had a sense of the game
<imbri> consensus was they suck
<bill> CTW had a big launch, like 12 websites live on day 1
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<taozero> lol
<imbri> that's the way to go, imo
<taozero> a big launch?
<imbri> that's what metacortechs was as well
<catherwood> so, could you say that CTW had no rabbithole?
<imbri> we had 8 sites live from the getgo or something like that
<bill> the rabbit hole was the email
<dmax> well, the world should already be there
<dmax> wasn't CTWs rabbithole the email?
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<bill> the "plea for help"
<taozero> does a meta site absolutely rule out a stealthy-ish launch, though?
<catherwood> but it's not a rabbithole if you've started with a prelaunch countdown page, is it?
<catherwood> it might be the front door, but all sense of wonder(land) is gone
<dmax> and then, suddenly, you were immersed like falling deep into water - or a rabbithole
<imbri> i consider metacortechs to be Mu's rabbithole
<bill> cath, why not?
<imbri> and we had a countdown
<dmax> of course, we could always eschew the moniker "rabbithole" if it gets in our way. No reason it HAS to be the standard.
<imbri> i think countdowns can be effective
<Liqidcrack> no countdowns
<imbri> i also like short prelaunches (2-3 weeks or so) and then a sudden big world to explore
<dmax> countdown only if pertinent to the plot
<Ehsan> can you explain a countdown when it comes to the actual story...
<catherwood> imbri, i guess i mean that the finding the rabbithole was the stealth
<imbri> kinda like, you know, all the stuff she saw when she was falling down the rabbithole
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<dmax> remember how Dave used real world to time events in CTW - e.g., the nearness of Mars. Something similar as a pregame countdown: "Tide coming in next week. We're going shell hunting! Uh oh - what's in the bottle we found?"
<Ciaran_H> I'm late, aren't I?
<imbri> you are, but we're still talking up a storm
<bill> consider this, you're a grassroots PM. You don't build a metasite and you don't do a pregame. How do you tell the world you exist in a natural way that doesn't violate the curtain?
<imbri> i only just really got here a few minutes ago too
<Ciaran_H> Ah.
<LBoomer> again it depends on story context
<imbri> well who would do that?
<bill> mu did it by 'relaunching' the webstie
<catherwood> can anyone tell me whether people would stumble upon the CTW pregame site? was there a rabbithole to GET to it?
<imbri> ah
<imbri> ok
<Ciaran_H> I'd say something, but I have no idea if it's been brought up before. Is there a log available I can view yet?
<imbri> i was thinking no sort of prelaunch anything
<bill> i think dave had google ads
<LBoomer> Tranquil Valley we sent out missing person's flyers
<bill> leo, who did you send them to?
<imbri> heck, i argue (strifey vehemently disagrees) that even ILB had a nice prelaunch
<dmax> Ciarian_H, we've already talked about dmaxRadio (www.tinyurl.com/5xby5) so you don't need to do that
<catherwood> but then people were led to a metasite explaining that a game is about to start (for CTW). MU didn't have that
<imbri> i think they're essential
<bill> prelaunches are essential?
<LBoomer> We used the RWG site for signups rather than a game based Metasite
<imbri> not essential
<imbri> but important
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<imbri> some sort of ramp up
<dmax> imbri - what things are provided by a pregame that aren't game? just to clarify
<catherwood> having a staging area is fine, if it still feels like an alternate reality.
<Ciaran_H> dmax: Thanks, but I wasn't going to - I didn't even know about it.
<imbri> some sort of way for people to fall down the rabbithole together
<imbri> and then to hit the ground all at once and see this brave new world
<bill> is having a big launch with 8-12 sites essential?
<dmax> you didn't konw about dmaxRadio (www.tinyurl.com/5xby5) ? remind me to mention it some time
<dmax> (OK, I'm done)
<catherwood> imbri, i'm using the word differently than you, i think. Once you've found the MU website countdown, you're *already* in the rabbithole, not waiting to fall into it as a group.
<colin> considering people are refusing to join games that have already started...you need a lead in
<imbri> ok, you find the website and that's the rabbithole
<imbri> and you see a countdown and the occasional popup
<Liqidcrack> people are refusing what?
<catherwood> Bill, i think having a lot of sites available at launch gives the universe more realism.
<imbri> that's falling down it
<imbri> that's a prelaunch, imo
<bill> what if every site could be the rabbithole?
<bill> presumably, they'll cover a range of subjects
<Ciaran_H> Has anybody just created the site, got it into Google/elsewhere, and then left it to see who finds it first?
<bill> each one could be promoted to a different interested group
<catherwood> that would be more realistic too, that you enter the looking glass world thru any of several optional mirrors.
<imbri> we did that with mu, kinda
<guy_p> I was wondering the other day - can a page even *get* onto a search engine without being linked to by anywhere?
<bill> you did?
<imbri> we created a site and just put it up (with a countdown)
<imbri> and steve was messing with google ads and testing various keywords or something
<Ciaran_H> guy_p: Yes. Every search engine I know of, including Google, has an "add link" form.
<imbri> and not even 5 minutes later it was found
<guy_p> Ah, that'll teach me Thanks Ciaran
<Ciaran_H> But your PageRank will be abysmal unless you are linked.
<imbri> apparently matrix is a pretty active search term
<bill> how much did you guys spend on google adwords?
<imbri> $5?
<imbri> what's the minimum ammount?
<imbri> i think that's what we spent and we still have credit
<bill> so, you didn't really use it, you just happened to get a hit while playing around
<imbri> though i could be wrong
<imbri> yeah
<catherwood> i'm not sure why someone might have accidentally found Wongmo or Paintover, for example, but from those sites it was still possible to see the MU world unfold logically.
<catherwood> games don't have to have a linear progression to their websites
<imbri> yeah, the first hit on the adword found the site/game
<imbri> iirc
<imbri> we were rather scared
<imbri> i think it was at that moment that we had our first collective shit
<imbri> it was messy
<bill> heh
<bill> where does one draw the line on real sites when linking back to your game site?
<imbri> i mean, at that point, it was still primarily just steve, space, and i with the others chiming in in agreement now and then
<bill> e.g. with a missing persons theme, how 'real' can you get without truly offending people?
<Liqidcrack> ooh like that blog
<bill> remember that blog with the rich girl on the run?
<catherwood> zero believability for me with any missing person theme, due to the lack of police involvement
<imbri> oh man, cd's treatment of that was just awful
<Ehsan> would i be too off topic if I said NO MORE missing persons.. please.. enough
<bill> hehe
<imbri> isabella
<bill> ok, bad example
<bill> isabella
<bill> top notch writing on that imho
<imbri> fantastic
<bill> and that blog had a lot of traffic too I think
<imbri> and it had a lot going for it, i still cannot figure out why they worked so hard to destroy it
<bill> march2003.com comes to mind too
<Liqidcrack> so to make it real anytime there is a point where law enforcement is required it blows it for everyone?
<imbri> she's a flight risk?
<bill> yeah
<bill> that's the one
<guy_p> i *liked* she's a flight risk, even though i'm sceptical (never saw how UF/CD/etc responded to it)
<catherwood> person on the run can engage players and say "don't call the cops!", but a person asking players help to FIND a missing person just falls flat
<imbri> it was obviously interactive fiction of some sort
<bill> http://shes.aflightrisk.org/
<guy_p> just find a good excuse why law enforcement shouldn't be involved (i say that like it's easy)
<imbri> and they were just nasty about it and related it to the kasey nichole stuff (i spelled her name wrong, didn't i)
<guy_p> kaycee nicole, now there was some real ARG detective work.
<imbri> see, i don't think ARGs should strive for that sort of 'realism' (yes, i know kaycee nicole was a fraud)
<imbri> i love what Perplex City is doing, i think it's brilliant
<bill> i think there are lots of plausible ways to keep it real without expecting police involvement
<imbri> people don't want real (they say they do, but they don't)
<imbri> it's the whole uncanny valley theory at play
<guy_p> the closer it comes to "real", the less real it seems - the uncanny valley
<Liqidcrack> they want real but won't sign the release document and provide proof of insurance
<bill> e.g. The police filed it and refuse to commit resources (not unusual) or they've decided the person disappeared voluntarily (not a crime)
<guy_p> ...whoa. OH SNAP!
<imbri>
<catherwood> ok, straying a bit from the Promotional topic...
<guy_p> wasn't AotH pretty much "the police suck" ?
<bill> yeah
<bill> hence the need for a private agency
<imbri> when you know it's fiction, you notice how real it is
* Liqidcrack puts the promotional topic to bed
<imbri> when it's too real, you notice every little piece that's 'off'
<catherwood> and does a Metasite break the faux realism?
<imbri> and you want people to focus on the realism not on the 'offism'
<bill> that's an interesting point
<bill> in terms of rabbit holes, how much realism is enough?
<catherwood> maybe it's like with a video game with "photorealistic" graphics -- they just look CGI, not real; better to go with artistic renderings instead.
<Liqidcrack> if you can make the metasite look like part of the game instead of having a blinking banner reading "the game is in here" and advertisments plastered all over it you can
<imbri> funny you should mention images cath
<imbri> i was just thinking about how much you (and a couple others) focused on the stock photos we used in mu
<imbri> perhaps a bit of that needing to focus on what's off instead of what's right
<bill> what if we called it a focal site instead of a meta site? would that be different or just semantics?
<Liqidcrack> semantics
<bill> even if it doesn't say "I'm a game"
<guy_p> no, it's an important distinction
<guy_p> a meta site is OOG, a "focal" site is IG?
<bill> imbri often mentions TINAG as something internally consistent instead of being stark realism
<Liqidcrack> sorry oog and ig?
<catherwood> Dana's blog and stolenA3 could say, "here's what's happened to US so far" and not "here's what you've missed in the game so far"
<guy_p> out of game / in game
<bill> something clearly fictious but treats itself as real
<bill> fictitious
<bill> i.e. Blair Witch
<catherwood> in the beginning, Dana's blog comments were even cleaned, to edit out anyone being negative about how it's just a game
<Liqidcrack> problem i've had when writing out idea for projects is keeping everything in the same tense or pov. Promoting is the same thing. It's gotte be consistant
<bill> i didn't know that
<catherwood> after a few months, the rules relaxed, and those comments could slide by
<bill> so, can one have a site that appears ingame but is clearly a rabbit hole and do well both inside and outside of the community?
<catherwood> i'm seeing 3 stages: pre-game (no metasite), launch and early play (maybe a focal site), and fully deep into the game (metasite okay for latecomers)
<bill> it would need to appeal to other active communities to be successful
<Liqidcrack> sure. to add to the intrigue for the jaded community you just have to make it something they haven't seen before and make it understandable and leading enough for the outside community.
<catherwood> pre-game promotes the rabbithole, not the game. Post-launch promotes the *game* to get more audience.
<catherwood> can we mention ARGtalk a bit? where was its rabbithole? where was its promotion?
<LBoomer> I liked the Orbital Colony Trailer as promotion
<bill> the rabbit hole was the audiocast imho
<bill> the promo was the argtalk website
<bill> specifically, they fake buyout
<bill> -y
<catherwood> so they didn't need to promo the argtalk website at all.
<catherwood> you don't promo the promo
<bill> they hit an audience with a natural tie-in to their content
<LBoomer> well, how was ARGTalk the site originally found?
<catherwood> and after the kidnapping, did they continue to promote the game? or just let ARGtalk continue as usual?
<bill> stirred enough controversy to ensure an audience and then dropped the rabbit hole
<bill> argtalk was found by sin_vraal through a google ad
<bill> he google ARG iirc
<dmax> he do?
<imbri> heh, a google ad
<imbri> that should have tipped us all off to dave being behind it
<bill> heh, yeah
<bill> that, and his sudden appearance in #uf
<catherwood> without a countdown to full launch, people also walked away from the controversy, rather than becoming a captive audience.
<bill> cath, are you still talking about argtalK?
<catherwood> my personal experience of it, yes.
<Liqidcrack> problem was that who the hell is going to google ARG but people in here or on the other side
<catherwood> I didn't enjoy reading what felt like flaming stirring-of-the-shit
<Liqidcrack> laserbeam marketing
<catherwood> so by the time the phone chat event happened, i was gone
<imbri> yes, but it was a game written for the existing arg crowd
<imbri> purposely
<bill> right
<Liqidcrack> no offense
<LBoomer> again built in audience
<imbri> so that wasn't a 'problem'
<Liqidcrack> when i finally get off my ass and do something ya'll aren't going to be in the picture
<Liqidcrack> and that's part of my promotion
<Liqidcrack>
<bill> having a critical mass of players before launch is a big deal that isn't discussed much
<bill> people tend to target UF thinking they'll get that critical mass quickly and easily
<imbri> i thought that's what we were discussing, of sorts
<imbri> yeah, i don't get that
<guy_p> ok: getting new players that aren't existing argers. thoughts? (unless this has already been covered, because i'm late)
<imbri> i don't know how many times i have to do my bs statistical breakdown before people will get the idea
<bill> guy, we only discussed that everyone agrees it's necessary
[b]<imbri> (somewhat educated bs

[HaxanMike]

This was a great chat! I'd love to join any chat that begins after 8 PM Eastern in the future.