unforum

[Rogi Ocnorb]

It does sound like Islington (Let's do a poll to decide on a nick for him: Is, Iz, Ix, I?) assumed Graeme would get the location-based clue and know it was in Islington, but given that Graeme uses "SCOOBY" in lieu of "@" on all email addresses he posts at LL, I can see where he's miss it

[Shane]

[sollune]

[Law of Five]

The Scooby-Doo connection is great, but only relevant if:

1. There aren't similar posters all over London and all over the Tube. (what's it advertising, by the way? Is there a new movie out? I'm in Canada and have no idea!)

2. There is some connection with the westbound track / platform at the Angel. IIRC, the poster was seen on the southbound side.

Cheers

Law

[Law of Five]

Graeme's back at LazyLaces, and has mentioned something which might start to make sense of the places we've located so far in London.

The full moon will rise at 4:59pm in London on Monday 17th October. The starting point indicated by Newton in the first map is adjacent to the Monument Tube station. Which Graeme says is 'freaky' as "it's near where I work."

So I'm thinking Islington is plotting a course for Graeme to follow when he leaves work as the moon rises on that Monday. Get on the Northern line and follow the clues...

It is possible that the Scooby Doo poster is significant - ThatDeadDude, if you're passing by again, can you get us a photo?

Keep the faith...

Law of Five

[brimstoner]

okay.. so this could be meaningless, or it could be really neat. So I am searching through for a connection between Paine and Burke, and it occurs to me that There is a book about Paine called "Father of republics". I google it and uncover a partial piece of this book beginning on page 197. It seems all the transcripts out there begin on page 197. Anyway within this little text is the following very interesting stuff :

When the year 1790 is about to expire, Paine, the engineer, is in England, anxious concerning the success of his iron bridge, a model of which is exposed in one of the suburbs of London. It was at the very moment when Burke's "Reflections on the Revolution in France" appeared. The entire spirit of conservatism is there unfolded with the superb eloquence and arrogance of a master in statesmanship rebuking his pupils.
The mixture of contempt for man and respect for established power that marked the entire work, the blending of that political optimism and philosophic pessimism which are the characteristic qualities of the authoritative and well contented conservative, was but too well known [begin page 238] to Paine as the deadly enemy of every effort to attain enfranchisement.

It was necessary to speak, the more so as Burke had disdainfully passed aside as unworthy of notice the marks of sympathy given to the French revolutionists by Priestley, Price, and the radical associations, and, as the "Reflections" were immediately translated, and went through five editions in France in a single year, it was evident that, if no Englishman replied to them, the idea would spread through France that all England was indifferent to the agonies of justice. How could the misunderstandings between the two peoples ever be dissipated if this belief was established?

Paine for the second time in his life heard a sudden call. Hardly had he finished the last page of the "Reflections" at the Red Lion in Islington before he asked for pen and ink, and set about composing his reply in the inn itself. In this fashion, was dashed off, in less than three months, the first part of the " Rights of Man."




So note the Burke reference, the Bridge reference, the Paine reference, the Old Red Lion reference. This has all got to be related to what we are looking for. Thoughts anyone?

[sollune]

I think: Very Nice. Good researching. Lots of connections.

Too bad it doesn't have the 1970/0791 reference though.

Hmmmm.. maybe Islington wants us to and write our ideas down, which when read by other people will make them stop building iron bridges and think of great and wonderful things- like the 'Rights of Man'... or something...

Don't know how else it could be used.
Anyone have any ideas?

[Law of Five]

Doing more digging around... Seems 1790 was a rather traumatic year for Tom Paine:

Paine, at the beginning of 1786, wrote his Dissertations, mainly in defence of the Bank of North America. He was now, however, devoting himself to an invention for an iron bridge. He consulted Franklin, and his plans were considered by a committee of the Pennsylvania assembly, who were proposing a bridge over the Schuylkill. At the end of March 1787 he wrote to Franklin that he intended to go to Europe with the model of his bridge, and was anxious to see his parents. He sailed in April, went to Paris, where he was received as a distinguished guest, and laid his model before the academy of sciences. In August 1787 he reached London. His father, who had shortly before written an affectionate letter to him, had died in 1786; but he went to Thetford, where his mother was still living, and made her an allowance of 9s. a week. She died in May 1790.

Paine had brought to London some papers, approved by Cardinal de Brienne, in favour of friendly relations between France and England, and presented it to Burke. The real purpose of this overture is explained by a pamphlet called Prospects on the Rubicon, which Paine published on his arrival. The French were in close alliance with the Dutch republican party; but the Prussians intervened in the autumn to support the stadtholder, who represented the opposite politics. Pitt made a secret treaty with the king of Prussia, and was prepared to support him if necessary in a war with France. Paine's pamphlet is directed against Pitt's scheme, and insists chiefly upon the incapacity of England to stand another French war. De Brienne naturally wished to stimulate the English opposition against Pitt's policy, which, however, succeeded, as the French shrank from war. Paine thus became known to Burke, Fox, the Duke of Portland, and other Whig politicians. He employed himself, however, chiefly upon his bridge, the construction of which was undertaken by Messrs. Walker of Rotherham, Yorkshire. It was brought to London and set up in June 1790 at Leasing (now Paddington) Green for exhibition. The failure of an American merchant, Whiteside, who had some interest in the speculation, caused Paine's arrest for debt, but he managed to pay the money. The bridge was finally broken up in 1791. The first attempt at an iron bridge was made at Lyons in 1755, but it failed. In 1779 the first iron bridge, constructed by Abraham Darby, was opened at Coalbrookdale. According to Mr. Smiles, the bridge over the Wear at Sunderland, opened in 1796, was constructed from the materials of Paine's bridge, and his designs were adopted with some modification. The credit has also been given to Rowland Burdon, who actually executed the plan. It would seem that, in any case, Paine's scheme must have helped to suggest the work. He wrote about other scientific projects to Jefferson, and had a strong taste for mechanical inventions. But his attention was diverted to other interests.

(from:http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/terrace/adw03/c-eight/people/paine.htm)

So he arrived in 1787, his mother died in 1790, his bridge project failed and he was arrested for debt. His beloved iron bridge was broken up and used for parts in another bridge in Sunderland years later. Sounds like a catalogue of disaster and broken dreams. Does anyone know his mother's name?

Law of Five

[shylilembrace]

Paine was born on January 29, 1737, to impoverished parents: Joseph Paine, a (lapsed) Quaker, and Frances Cocke Paine, an Anglican.His sister Elizabeth died at seven months. Paine, who grew up around farmers and other uneducated people, left school at the age of twelve. He was apprenticed to his father, a corset makerat 13, apparently failing at this as well. Aged 19, Paine became a merchant seamanserving a short time before returning to England in April 1759. There he set up a corset shop in Sandwich, Kent In September of that year, Paine married. Following a move to Margate, his wife died in 1760.


So the 1790 wife was his second one?

[Law of Five]

Paine's wives:

On 17 September 1759 he married Mary Lambert (first wife, dies less than a year later)

On 26 March 1771 he married Elizabeth Ollive (second wife, separates from Paine in 1774, dies 1808)

As far as I can tell, he did not marry a third time and had been alone for 13 years when he returned to England in 1787.

Law

[Law of Five]

Hmmm... don't see any mileage in death of Frances Cocke Paine in summer 1790 (thanks for digging this up, shylilembrace!)

The only Tube-related link which comes out of all this is Paddington Green, which is where Paine's ill-fated bridge was constructed. To get there from Angel you would have to go west to King's Cross, change onto the Circle (yellow) line and go 5 stops westbound to arrive at Paddington Station. It seems a bit weak, but Paine was obsessed with the bridge project in 1790, so presumably spent a lot of time at Paddington Green and was arrested when it all went tits up.

On another topic: assuming that Islington may be aiming all of this at Graeme, we can also assume that he knows where Graeme works and where he lives (Graeme has suggested this over on LL). So it might be useful to know how Graeme gets home from work in the evenings - does he take the Tube, and does he take the Northern Line? Just thinking another piece of info might help us move on... I'll post this over at LL and see what Graeme says...

Cheers

Law

[jefftheworld]

Considering Greames page says: "'Scooby Doo' is Not a Clue" I dont think it's relevant...or maybe it is more relevant...hmm

[Law of Five]

AAARGH!

I've just had another look at the 13books site, and the Paine image has changed yet again! Now he's just screwing with us!

The first picture was straightforward: at the bottom right, it said 'Old Red Lion 1970'.

Then yesterday, the '1970' got reversed (flipped horizontally) but the rest stayed normal. Here is the original image as it appeared after the 'flip':



and here it is flipped back again so you can read the 1970 again:



As you can see, the order of the digits is still the same, but the whole thing '1970' is still intact, just flipped over. On the page as it appeared, it looked a bit like 0791 with the 7 and the 9 facing the wrong way.

Then today, another flip but different again. Here is the image as it is shown at present:



and here is my 'flipped back' version:



As you can see, all the digits have been flipped horizontally as before, but now the order is different. Now it says '0971'. On the page as it now is, it appears as 1-backwards7-backwards9-0. As the 1 and the 0 don't change much when flipped, it looks a bit like '1790' with the 7 and the 9 appearing backwards...

This is making my brain hurt, as Islington is clearly drawing our attention to the '1970' thing, but I just can't see why! Maybe 0971 is significant? Or is it the flipping itself? The left-right thing? ('Leftor', the 'Rights' of Man) Or is 0971 an old UK dialing code?

Help

Law of Five

[Rogi Ocnorb]

Don't know about everybody esle, but when I get back from an appointment, I'm gonna start reading some "Reflections".
(Burke's and Paine's).

[angel2k10]

using the link from the links page go to wikipedia page then to the main page. mentions of islington and the north line. anything relevent?