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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Last Call Poker » LCP: General/Updates
[UPDATE]The Curse & Spiders First (new poker tables)
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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Nos wrote:
Could the gift of eve be construed as Free Will?


Not exactly. Free Will, being defined theologically as the ability to do other than G-d wills, was necessary for Eve to choose to take the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge in the first place. She had to have it before she took the fruit. (Unless you're a Calvinist, of course. Wink)

What Eve and Adam gained and (depending on your religious tradition/interpretation) passed onto their children was the ability to tell good from evil.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:32 pm
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Dorkmaster
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Good analysis, Phae...

Perhaps the Gift of Eve (remember, the following, that by removing it, they lose the difference of good from evil), is not free-will, but instead, knowledge...

Remember, the in the story of creation, christian-style, the tree that Eve ate from caused mankind to forever thereafter have knowledge of good and evil. (while they could choose whatever they wanted, they really had no sense of evil previously. They knew what was disobeying, but not true evil, at least from what I gather...)

So one could say that the gift of Eve was Evil-ness itself? Or the ability of mankind to comprehend Evil fully?

I dunno. It's deep though. Me likey. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:18 pm
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Incitatus
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I'm going with dorkmaster 99% on this one.
I believe that she has the right idea about the Evangelic Christian scriptures, which declare eve's "gift" as the ability from the tree of knowledge.

Though I believe that by removing the gift of eve, you would make someone sociopathic. One can still tell good from evil, he just has no conscience to influence him one way or the other.
A potentially MAJOR personality flaw.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:03 pm
Last edited by Incitatus on Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Phaedra
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Incitatus wrote:
Though I believe that by removing the gift of eve, you would make someone sociopathic. One can still tell good from evil, he just has no conscience to influence him one way or the other.
A potentially MAJOR personality flaw.


Hmm, see there I disagree.

A sociopath, as you note, can still tell good from evil.

Removing the gift of Eve, theoretically, would remove that ability, resulting (one would assume) in either an insane person (as defined legally -- unable to tell wrong from right) or a total innocent.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:06 pm
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HitsHerMark
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I agree that the "gift of Eve" in this particular case is "knowlage of good and evil".

Unlike the story of Pandora, there was evil in the world (technically) before Eve and Adam ate of the fruit. Eating the fruit gave them the ability to recognise it is all.

As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The inability to tell good from evil is a bad thing and will lead to bad things regardless of weather one is insane or innocent.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:30 pm
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Incitatus
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I suppose your right.
It's just that Kerry has shown some twisted sense of morals, even if fleeting.
Though I suppose one could argue more basic emotional responces prevailed in place of morals.

His methodical nature can still be seen either way, either he doesn't care that he's done horrible things, or he doesn't know, which would contradict some of his more reccent conversations.

Unless...
[SPECULATIVE]
By comming into possesion of the gun, the curse has been... semi-lifted. Sort of a dirrectional indicator, that he's on the right track. His admissions to having done what he himself describes as terrible things, and even taking up some responsibilities for his killing victor. Non-characteristic until now, and even going against him having lost "the gift of eve."
Obviously The gun will play a(lethal?) role in Unspilling the spilled blood, but if true, this effect on the curse and kerry could indicate a major and probably metaphorical role.
[/SPECULATIVE]
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:48 pm
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krystyn
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A major trait of sociopathic behavior is extreme selfishness in behavior, with little regard for consequences delivered to others, but I was also under the impression that this was combined with a lack of moral compass, as well. So, maybe not so much with the being able to tell good from evil?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:55 pm
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Phaedra
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krystyn wrote:
A major trait of sociopathic behavior is extreme selfishness in behavior, with little regard for consequences delivered to others, but I was also under the impression that this was combined with a lack of moral compass, as well. So, maybe not so much with the being able to tell good from evil?


Hmm. In my psych classes we were taught that sociopaths could tell the difference between right and wrong (they're usually pretty bright, and capable of learning that sort of thing), but they didn't care.

More specifically, they don't appear to be able to learn from punishment, and they are incapable of empathy for others, which are the two main things that prevent children from engaging in behavior they know to be wrong (fear of the consequences, and feeling sorry for people they hurt), before they develop more abstract notions of right and wrong and use that as a moral compass.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:13 pm
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konamouse
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If the gun isn't loaded, how can it kill? Lucy had the gun in the cemetery but she resorted to throwing it at Kink (there were no bullets).

The gun itself hasn't been used to kill in this timeline (2005) and I'm not sure if it has even been fired since 1945.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:10 pm
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hmrpita
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Dang. This simple soul interpreted "the gift of Eve" as merely Life.

This is why I don't post very often.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:56 pm
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ariock
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A person with no sense of right or wrong kind of reminds me of the Gun. A gun is a very dangerous tool, and can be used to protect or defend, but the gun itself doesn't know the difference.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:37 pm
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johnny5
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Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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Vestal Plastic Wrappings (September 29, 2005) wrote:

... "They were all bad men," the customer said. "Very bad. But it still seems like I ought to feel sorry about it."

"Ah."

"I mean, a human life. It ought to matter. It ought to bother me."

"But it doesn't."

"Not at all," the stranger said. "Not one damn bit." ..
I think this hints at the effects of the curse. A lack of conscience as it were.

In this later entry, do we see Kerry feel true remorse for killing an innocent man or just frustration at the fact that his attempts to "do the right thing" are gone astray? "Good intentions" and whatnot as HHM mentioned previously.
Mr. Killer (October 15, 2005) wrote:
"What do you do if you've screwed up?" Kerry said. "I mean, if you didn't mean to, but you did?"

Clay thought a minute. "I guess you make amends."

Kerry leaned forward, elbows on his knees, and stared at his boots. "When you k-kill a guy—" He stopped, started again, speaking slowly and deliberately. "You can't really make it up to him."

Clay nodded. "Sometimes you can't make amends at all."

Kerry sighed. It was the true, heart-wrenching sigh of a man at the end of his rope. "I just want to do the right thing. That's all I've ever wanted to do."

"That's why you kill people?" Clay said. Surprised.

Kerry looked up at him. "Yeah. Of course. Otherwise I'd be just like them."

"Well … not to be a priest about it, but it's commonly thought that killing people isn't right."

Kerry nodded. "I know. I used to believe that, too. But he was murdering my sisters, you know. Would you believe my mom lied and lied to keep the cops off of him? What the hell is that?" The words coming faster now, jerky. "Sometimes you gotta take responsibility. But what if I was wrong about some of the others? How do I m-make it up?"

Clay sighed. "The Indians used to think that if you accidentally killed a man, you had to take care of his family. As if you were him."

Kerry looked at him for a moment. Then he started laughing. "Oh man, that's rich," he said. "Oh man."

And now for a few random thoughts....
From the above text (and a couple of other updates making a point of the fact that Kerry is "watching over" Corazon as "penance" for killing Victor) Could Kerry taking care of Lucy as if she were family, or rescuing her from death be a way to "unspill blood" ?

Another Son of a Son: Looking at it from a meta perspective, the only other male Brown who A. has a card and B. is referenced weekly (albeit indirectly) is Devon.

Breaking the curse of the Gun:
It's pretty likely that there will be a poker game with at least Kerry, Lucy and Don. 8 spots at the LCP tables would predict that the other archetypes will be there also. Clay can join if the table is on LCP.

Shambling, rambling, mode off.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:32 am
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rose
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Do we know anything about Corazon's family tree?

And j5 is correct about Devon, althought I think there is at least one of Lucy's brothers who lives nearby. The one with the wife that Lucy doesn't like and the daughter.

Also, as for the curse, Lucy is not a killer - but does her gambling addiction count? Losing her father's house? Still, she is on the giving end of the curse, not the receiving end right? So she wouldn't be cursed?

as for Kerry, we still don't know his father's name right? Tucker is his step-father. I remember Don suggesting to Kerry that he change his name back to his father's name at one point, but Kerry couldn't because of his VA benefits.

At this point, I am wondering about all the characters and their respective family trees.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:50 am
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j5
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rose wrote:
Also, as for the curse, Lucy is not a killer - but does her gambling addiction count? Losing her father's house? Still, she is on the giving end of the curse, not the receiving end right? So she wouldn't be cursed?


No I don't think she's cursed, but the gun is, and her involvement with that is what puts her in danger.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:50 am
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HitsHerMark
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ariock wrote:
A person with no sense of right or wrong kind of reminds me of the Gun. A gun is a very dangerous tool, and can be used to protect or defend, but the gun itself doesn't know the difference.


I don't think the issue is having no sense of right or wrong... It's not being able to tell the difference between the two.

Wanting to do good but later finding out that you've been doing evil in the name of good when the "scales fall from your eyes"...

That's way worse then having no sense of the thing at all.

THAT is a curse worth writing home about.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:17 pm
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