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[UPDATE]The Curse & Spiders First (new poker tables)
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mcash3
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 		Sorry to jump in on this, but I think maybe the gift is Wisdom.

...so when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of it's fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Then the eyes of both were opened , and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings....

You don't necessarily need knowledge to know the difference between good and evil, but you do need wisdom.

My rookie thoughts anyway..... *shrug*

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:57 pm
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Phaedra
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mcash3 wrote:
Sorry to jump in on this, but I think maybe the gift is Wisdom.


Don't ever be sorry for jumping in! Welcome! Smile

mcash3 wrote:
...so when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of it's fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Then the eyes of both were opened , and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings....

You don't necessarily need knowledge to know the difference between good and evil, but you do need wisdom.

My rookie thoughts anyway..... *shrug*


It's a good point and a clever distinction, but if you want to make a distinction regarding the tree as a source of "wisdom" rather than "knowledge," I don't think it's supported by the text of Genesis, i.e. the text specifies "knowledge" rather than "wisdom."

That said, you may be right, depending on how the PMs read the text. Goodness knows I've been wrong enough times before. Wink

However, as I read the text (again, if we're going to distinguish between "knowledge" and "wisdom"), the gift bestowed by the fruit is knowledge.

Judging by the number of times the tree is referred to using a form of "know" or "knowledge," vs. the one time it is described as a source of "wisdom," and also taking into account the reliability of the characters/narrator who name it so, this is a tree of knowledge, not wisdom.

That said, I'm not sure that the Bible makes the same sort of distinction between wisdom and knowledge that we make, with wisdom being a form of enlightenment or insight, or discernment of what is true, good, or right, and knowledge being something more like accumated facts or technical know-how.

The word most often translated as "knowledge," da'ath, means perception, or skill, or understanding (so it partakes of the connotations of our understanding of both "knowledge" and "wisdom"), and the word most often translated as "wisdom," chokmah, means shrewdness, skill, or religious and ethical wisdom, or wisdom in governing.

In other words, in an ancient text like Genesis, it may be a distinction without a difference.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:21 pm
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mcash3
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Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Quote:
Judging by the number of times the tree is referred to using a form of "know" or "knowledge," vs. the one time it is described as a source of "wisdom," and also taking into account the reliability of the characters/narrator who name it so, this is a tree of knowledge, not wisdom.


Yes, it is referred to as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. 2 trees actually, the other being the Tree of Life but they didn't eat from that one.

I guess I'm hung up on the part where the tree is "desirable to make one wise". There is a verse later that says Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. So I guess that does lend to knowledge being the gift when taken in context with the curse. But I still don't think that wisdom comes from knowledge. When Solomon became King of Isreal and G-d came to him in a vision he was asked what He should give him, and Solomon asked for wisdom and knowledge. And G-d said since he asked for wisdom and knowledge and not wealth he would have wisdom and knowledge plus everything else (condensed version of many verses). I guess it's semantics, but wisdom was always mentioned before knowledge and lends to my "theory" that wisdom is more important.. Confused

One other interesting thought. When G-d admonished Eve, prior to throwning her and Adam from Eden, He said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception.... In other translations, pain is substituted for sorrow.

Also, Eve was just known as Woman when she at from the tree. Adam didn't name her Eve (because she was the mother of all living) until after they had been admonished, and just before they were expelled from Eden.

One thing that should probably be considered is if the curse is from the early 1800's, then any possible Biblical references would be made from the King James Version since that was the prominent and almost only translation at the time.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:45 pm
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Phaedra
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mcash3 wrote:
I guess I'm hung up on the part where the tree is "desirable to make one wise".


Well, specifically:

The idea that the tree may confer wisdom -- as opposed to knowledge, is brought up only once -- and is a description of Eve's thoughts regarding it, as opposed to a description by G-d (presumably omniscient) or the narrator (also presumably omniscient).

Furthermore, the use of the word wisdom here is a function of the English translation, not the original text. The word translated as "wisdom" is sakal, from a root meaning to be prudent or circumspect, or to have insight or comprehension. While those may be functional synonyms for "wisdom," Biblical Hebrew has a word for wise: chakam, which is translated as "wise" far more often than sakal, which is also frequently translated as "understanding" or "prosperous."

So to return to what the text depicts Eve as thinking at that moment, while it's not conveyed in the English, there are possible overtones of an almost material acquisitiveness implied in the Hebrew:

Genesis 3:6 wrote:
6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight [ta'avah -- desirable or even lust-worthy] to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom [lit. "to be desired to make one wise" -- or "to give one insight," or "to cause to prosper"], she took of its fruit and ate.


So again, in my reading, we're subtly getting a look inside Eve's head here: whereas prior descriptions of the tree came either from G-d (in his command) or the narrator, and are therefore presumably accurate and objective (the tree is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil), at this point, the narrative narrows considerably and zooms in for a close-up of Eve's thought processes. I'm not sure this is so much an accurate description of the tree as it is a description of what the tree represents to Eve: something delicious-looking, something beautiful, and something that will give her insight...possibly insight that she can use for her own gain ("to prosper").

mcash3 wrote:
There is a verse later that says Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. So I guess that does lend to knowledge being the gift when taken in context with the curse. But I still don't think that wisdom comes from knowledge. When Solomon became King of Isreal and G-d came to him in a vision he was asked what He should give him, and Solomon asked for wisdom and knowledge. And G-d said since he asked for wisdom and knowledge and not wealth he would have wisdom and knowledge plus everything else (condensed version of many verses). I guess it's semantics, but wisdom was always mentioned before knowledge and lends to my "theory" that wisdom is more important.. Confused


It's a good point, but remember that Kings was written significantly later than Genesis, and under a very different set of cultural pressures. Literature and philosophy had evolved to distinguish between wisdom and knowledge, which is why they start being mentioned together, instead of interchangeably.

mcash3 wrote:
One other interesting thought. When G-d admonished Eve, prior to throwning her and Adam from Eden, He said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception.... In other translations, pain is substituted for sorrow.


That's because the word used, etzev, can mean "pain," "sorrow," or "toil." It's the same word used for Adam:

JPS Tanakh 3:16-17 wrote:
16 And to the woman He said,
"I will make most severe
Your pangs in childbearing;
In pain [etzev] shall you bear children.
Yet your urge shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you."
17To Adam He said, "Because you did as your wife said and ate of the tree about which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,'
Cursed be the ground because of you;
By toil [etzev] shall you eat of it
All the days of your life."


But I'm not sure how that applies to a wisdom/knowledge distinction?

mcash3 wrote:
Also, Eve was just known as Woman when she at from the tree. Adam didn't name her Eve (because she was the mother of all living) until after they had been admonished, and just before they were expelled from Eden.


Right. But adam also just means "man." But again, I'm not sure how it's relevant here? Unless you're saying life itself is the "gift of Eve," as hmrpita suggested. Smile

mcash3 wrote:
One thing that should probably be considered is if the curse is from the early 1800's, then any possible Biblical references would be made from the King James Version since that was the prominent and almost only translation at the time.


Good point. The actual meaning may not matter; only the accepted meaning at the time.

Which brings up the fact that I've never heard the phrase "the gift of Eve." "The curse of Eve," certainly, but not the "gift."

Perhaps we should be looking into the usage of that phrase to determine the exact meaning?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:24 pm
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thunderclap8
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 		Not that this would make much sense, but "the gift of Eve" could be referring to Eve herself. As in, God gave the gift of Eve to Adam.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:37 pm
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Phaedra
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thunderclap8 wrote:
Not that this would make much sense, but "the gift of Eve" could be referring to Eve herself. As in, God gave the gift of Eve to Adam.


Yeah, that's the only sense I'm seeing when I google the phrase. Confused
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:57 pm
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mcash3
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Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Quote:
16 And to the woman He said,
"I will make most severe
Your pangs in childbearing;
In pain [etzev] shall you bear children.
Yet your urge shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you."
17To Adam He said, "Because you did as your wife said and ate of the tree about which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,'
Cursed be the ground because of you;
By toil [etzev] shall you eat of it
All the days of your life."


But I'm not sure how that applies to a wisdom/knowledge distinction?


Doesn't really.....lol I was second guessing myself and suggesting that maybe pain and sorrow was the gift.

Quote:
Also, Eve was just known as Woman when she at from the tree. Adam didn't name her Eve (because she was the mother of all living) until after they had been admonished, and just before they were expelled from Eden.


Right. But adam also just means "man." But again, I'm not sure how it's relevant here? Unless you're saying life itself is the "gift of Eve," as hmrpita suggested. Smile


Yep...that would be me 3rd guessing myself. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

Good point. The actual meaning may not matter; only the accepted meaning at the time.


All right....we agree on something. Smile It's probably a safe bet that the original Hebrew wasn't being considered when the curse was written/uttered and doesn't really fit here....?

How about a 4th guess? Sin. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, after G-d told them not to, they basically sinned. Well not basically, they did because they disobeyed G-d's law. So, that would lead to Cain and Abel being born into sin. And we know Cain slew Abel (sin again). Had Adam and Eve maintained their covenant with G-d and not eaten from the tree, then there would be no sin. Soooo..... perhaps maybe it can be read:

I will take Sin from them
So they will not know
Good
from
Evil

...then there would be no remorse or guilt for their actions.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:07 pm
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Phaedra
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mcash3 wrote:
It's probably a safe bet that the original Hebrew wasn't being considered when the curse was written/uttered and doesn't really fit here....?


Not if we're assuming that the meaning of the curse is based on a familiarity solely with the King James translation, no. I'm not sure if we can assume that, though, and a better sense of the original language does inform most modern translations which is why you're seeing things like the "pain/sorrow" variations. But okay, let's run with the idea that the curse is historically accurate in that the meaning of its Biblical reference is constructed around only the KJV translation.

mcash3 wrote:
How about a 4th guess? Sin. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, after G-d told them not to, they basically sinned. Well not basically, they did because they disobeyed G-d's law. So, that would lead to Cain and Abel being born into sin.


See, I was with you 'til there.

How were they "born into sin?" I'm not sure what their parents' sin in eating a fruit has to do with their birth.

Especially since, for all that "pain" in childbirth is supposedly Eve's "curse," the birth of Cain is described as an unequivocally happy event.

But whatever. Nevermind. Let's assume that the curse believes in the notion of Original Sin as something that can somehow be passed on genetically.

mcash3 wrote:
And we know Cain slew Abel (sin again). Had Adam and Eve maintained their covenant with G-d and not eaten from the tree, then there would be no sin. Soooo..... perhaps maybe it can be read:

I will take Sin from them
So they will not know
Good
from
Evil

...then there would be no remorse or guilt for their actions.


Not having guilt or remorse leads us back to sociopathy...

Or the actions of a True Believer/vigilante-type, who has his own system of right and wrong, but to put it in Shakespearian terms, is someone for whom "fair is foul and foul is fair"; someone who sees as good what the rest of us would deplore as evil and vice versa.

We've had several of those: Kerry, Maurice, and Simon, at least. We don't get much of a look into why Spider does what she does. I'm assuming she falls into the actual sociopath category, rather than the True Believer one.

Maurice is dead. Simon's moral inversion regarding murder is limited to ex-Nazis, as far as I can tell. Which leaves Kerry.

Kerry is someone for whom, due to Don McPherson's deception and manipulation, the normal moral order was reversed; he thought he was doing the right thing by killing the people Don ordered him to kill.

So where does that leave us?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:24 pm
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mcash3
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Quote:
Not having guilt or remorse leads us back to sociopathy...

Or the actions of a True Believer/vigilante-type, who has his own system of right and wrong, but to put it in Shakespearian terms, is someone for whom "fair is foul and foul is fair"; someone who sees as good what the rest of us would deplore as evil and vice versa.

We've had several of those: Kerry, Maurice, and Simon, at least. We don't get much of a look into why Spider does what she does. I'm assuming she falls into the actual sociopath category, rather than the True Believer one.

Maurice is dead. Simon's moral inversion regarding murder is limited to ex-Nazis, as far as I can tell. Which leaves Kerry.

Kerry is someone for whom, due to Don McPherson's deception and manipulation, the normal moral order was reversed; he thought he was doing the right thing by killing the people Don ordered him to kill.


Well, since I've just recently started messing with this stuff, and obviously behind the power curve, I don't see what any of that has to do with the curse, or specifically the gift of Eve. Except that maybe that part of the curse is being way over analized.

The other possible answer is shame.

In the KJV it says: And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Then after they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil it says: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

So before they ate they had no shame (had no distinction between good and evil). After they ate they knew they were naked (knew the difference between good and evil) and and since they were naked had shame, clothed themselves and hid. If the gift of Eve (shame?) was taken back, then you could assume that they would once again be without shame, (not know the difference between good and evil) and all things would be normal...even murder. Except murder is an evil word, so they would be just ending life.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:14 pm
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Phaedra
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mcash3 wrote:
Well, since I've just recently started messing with this stuff, and obviously behind the power curve,


Brave soul. If you don't already know, The Muck provides what is probably the easiest way to catch up on the story.

You got here just on time, since it looks like it will end on Saturday. Smile

The curse being overanalyzed is this:

Quote:
Spill my blood upon this [sand?]
& a curse will follow you
& your sons
& the sons of your sons
With my dying breath
I will take the gift of Eve from them
So they will not know
Good
from
Evil
Until my blood
has been unspilled
and my death unmade
and furthermore *bang* [big gap if there is more text after this, I haven't seen it] I think the killer cuts him off, so to speak.


mcash3 wrote:
I don't see what any of that has to do with the curse, or specifically the gift of Eve. Except that maybe that part of the curse is being way over analized.


Presumably Kerry is one of the descendants affected. But since we're not quite sure how that part of the curse is supposed to play out, we're not even sure what the curse really is, and, ergo, what its removal will entail.

mcash3 wrote:
The other possible answer is shame.

<snip>

So before they ate they had no shame (had no distinction between good and evil). After they ate they knew they were naked (knew the difference between good and evil) and and since they were naked had shame, clothed themselves and hid. If the gift of Eve (shame?) was taken back, then you could assume that they would once again be without shame, (not know the difference between good and evil) and all things would be normal...even murder. Except murder is an evil word, so they would be just ending life.


Right, but so what I think we're all trying to figure out is what does that mean and what needs to be done to get rid of it?

How does that translate into our contemporary understanding? Is it sociopathy? Is it some sort of moral/ethical retardation? Is it something we're not thinking of?

What does someone who lacks "the gift of Eve" look like to us?

Presumably it's heritable, either naturally or in a curse-induced magical way.

I don't think we've actually seen any character without some sense of right and wrong. Especially not in the Sullivan and Smith family trees. Kerry may be a killer, but he was a vigilante -- someone with a highly developed but aberrant sense of right and wrong.

Even Don McPherson (although he's not a member of either family tree) has the ability to discern right from wrong -- he recognizes that he's a dirty cop -- he just doesn't care.

But returning to Kerry, he's a Sullivan -- he's a son to whom the curse should apply. So what, precisely, is wrong with Kerry? What is the nature of the curse?

He was starting to see through Don's manipulations when Corazon insisted Vic was a good guy...

Although, come to think of it, maybe he can't tell on his own. He's always had someone else to tell him what was right or wrong.

Before falling under Don's influence, he was in the Army, where they tell you what to think and whom to kill.

After that, Don was telling him what was right and wrong and who deserved to die.

Corazon undermined Don's influence by presenting a different view of right and wrong to him, and now he's decided he will only trust her.

Hmm. I'd assumed that he had an aberrant ethical system, but that he had one of his own. But maybe he actually doesn't. Maybe he actually does need someone to tell him.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:57 am
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aliendial
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 		For completeness - the images from "Spider's First"
Only the last image seems to link to anything.

lower right - spider on round white thing (something also flashes behind the poker chip there)

middle of table - pager beeping says "1 MESSAGE"

Motel sign with another sign that says the motel shows adult movies

Another spider image top right

(sobbing)

Belt buckle/unzipped jeans float across screen

Shoes and bra on the floor

Flickering image - cash, ashtray, bedside table?

(sound of heavy breathing by girl, as if running)

Image of bloody legs on edges of a bathtub; sound of guy getting hit/his grunt

Final spider image that links to the bar fight with Lucy.

Maybe this was Spider's first for a couple of things, the first leading her to knock out Ed's brains.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:06 pm
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