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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Brute force - definition?
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		There have been cases where the WhoIs info was created (in a slightly fictious manner) purposefully to be In-Game (in order to find contact information).

It was one of the first rules I learned from UF
1) Check Source Code
2) Check WhoIs
3) Check Source Code again

Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:15 pm
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Adrian
Boot

Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 69
Location: Oxford/London, UK

 		Things have changed since the Beast. Puppetmasters are now well aware of the issues of WHOIS and have adjusted their games accordingly, so I'm not bothered about that any more.

However, what I was really bothered with was reverse DNS lookups - in other words, discovering which websites were associated with a particular IP. Unless you have a fair amount of time and money, it's usually certain that players will be able to discover websites that are not 'live' based on your other websites, which can affect gameplay.

All of this is variable, and it often depends on the spirit in which it is done. I don't think, for example, that it is particularly useful for players to discover the physical location of puppetmaster offices - even if they can. I don't think it's useful for players to try and hack in to game servers. I have noticed both things happening recently. Still, it isn't a big problem, and with any mature game, the player base is thankfully self-regulating.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:56 pm
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia
Adrian wrote:
However, what I was really bothered with was reverse DNS lookups - in other words, discovering which websites were associated with a particular IP. Unless you have a fair amount of time and money, it's usually certain that players will be able to discover websites that are not 'live' based on your other websites, which can affect gameplay.


Here I wholeheartedly agree. Finding future in-game sites that are not live yet is one thing. Not keeping that information to yourself (i.e. posting about it here) would be bad mojo.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:31 am
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
jamesi wrote:
Adrian wrote:
However, what I was really bothered with was reverse DNS lookups - in other words, discovering which websites were associated with a particular IP. Unless you have a fair amount of time and money, it's usually certain that players will be able to discover websites that are not 'live' based on your other websites, which can affect gameplay.


Here I wholeheartedly agree. Finding future in-game sites that are not live yet is one thing. Not keeping that information to yourself (i.e. posting about it here) would be bad mojo.


I dunno. I can't say that I do wholeheartedly agree. Making a statement against something being done pretty much creates the desire to do it. I don't mean that everyone should share all of the meta information that they find and that they should use their judgement on what to do with it, but if it's properly labelled and put into a proper place, I see no reason why it shouldn't be posted. It's information that is available and, in the case of IP, information that can be masked/avoided. While it costs money to order additional IPs through various hosts, I think that it can be done with a whopping $1 (this is assuming a dedicated host... hosting on a shared server pretty much negates this problem unless people assume all the dozens of other sites on the server are 'in-game'). Of course, you run the risk of it being a neighboring IP. However, if the sites associated with a particular IP are set to go live on the same day or in the same batch, is it really that huge of a worry? And, if it is that much of a worry, perhaps the storytelling and/or game design could be changed ever so slightly to reduce that concern.

Despite all my earlier shouts of "No Brute Forcing", I'm not much of a fan of telling players that they should act in a certain way or that they should hide publicly available information. At least, I can't really advocate such behavior as the member of the community. As a PM, sure, but do it in an ingame manner or on a meta site if there is one.

Though, as much as I love having that info in my hands, I do think that it should be properly labelled and kept out of game discussion... more as a courtesy to one's fellow players, especially those players that don't want information unless the PMs give it to them directly.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:57 am
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ItWasntMeISwear
Unfettered

Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 503
Location: Illannoys, USA

 		I have definitely changed the way that I would run a game, based on things that have happend since I've been involved with this community. For instance, any sites or pages that I have not given given to the players are not loaded until that information becomes available and files are not loaded until they are needed (ie. I gave out a puzzle to solve, then the file is loaded into the system that they need to find).

While this will not stop people from trying to find out more information, is does cut down on the information that the players see before you are ready for them to see it.

It also helps to password protect any folders that are not currently in use. Just in case.

Besides, you are the puppetmaster of the game. You should be able to say what information is available and what information is not and when it will become available.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:56 am
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia
imbri wrote:
Despite all my earlier shouts of "No Brute Forcing", I'm not much of a fan of telling players that they should act in a certain way or that they should hide publicly available information. At least, I can't really advocate such behavior as the member of the community. As a PM, sure, but do it in an ingame manner or on a meta site if there is one.


Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that the community at large should behave in such-and-such a manner. Speaking personally, though... I wouldn't appreciate it very much if someone force-fed this information about upcoming websites to me.

Again, that's not to say that people aren't allowed to do it. Whether or not people should do it is different for each individual, I guess.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:57 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
jamesi wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that the community at large should behave in such-and-such a manner. Speaking personally, though... I wouldn't appreciate it very much if someone force-fed this information about upcoming websites to me.

Again, that's not to say that people aren't allowed to do it. Whether or not people should do it is different for each individual, I guess.


nonono, I understand and I don't think of you as a hardlined you must do this sort. Heck, I'd have to be smoking something pretty hard core to have that impression of you after all these years. And, yes, I agree... I don't think that meta info of any sort should be force-fed to players. I had some pretty interesting talks about this (mostly behind the scenes and in private conversations with people) during Last Call Poker. Admittedly, it was the first game that I was deeply involved with as a player - not as a PM, not as a theorist, not as an observer. That allowed me to see what the meta discussions in the midst of game play threads did to my playing and, honestly, for as guilty of it as I am, I hated coming across any sort of meta conversation. It was a jolt that I didn't want to have at moments when I was into the game. However, it was/is nice to have a place to go and find that information. If it's labelled properly (and in the case of multiple forums... categorized properly), I see absolutely no harm.

Then again, I am the moderator of the meta section of UF for a reason... I love this stuff! metametametametametametammmmmmm

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:53 pm
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
ItWasntMeISwear wrote:
Besides, you are the puppetmaster of the game. You should be able to say what information is available and what information is not and when it will become available.

Well, to some extent, yes, you can run your world any way you see fit. However, I as a player I want your world to have depth and realism. If I think the game pushed me to be searching for a blog or a file or whatever, then the game needs to have an explanation for why it didn't already exist. There is nothing so maddening as to have someone else beat me to a find, when I had just been looking for it an hour ago! For example, if the players are meant to dig thru police files and court records for a past conviction, those bits of data need to already exist. That's the illusion of TINAG for me, that the world and its past events have left their footprints for us to follow back in time, as well as leading forward.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:50 pm
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FLmutant
Decorated


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 244
Location: Orlando, FL
vpisteve wrote:
Whois info used to be relevant as a possible clue or piece of a puzzle, until the legal requirement came out that all info in whois registration must be accurate, not fictitious.


I'm telling everyone now that "hiding the whois information probably isn't a good idea, but think about the message you're sending with that information, as people will find it quickly."

If you feel the whois information needs to be "hidden", the solution is a registration proxy service, not ficticious information in the DNS registration.

I admit I'm playing it safe with that strategy, but am starting to think of it more as a place to tip your hat that this is all fiction, rather than "consistent with the fictional universe" as a seemless approach. From a marketing end, this has a lot to do with the concept of transparency.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:26 am
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FLmutant
Decorated


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 244
Location: Orlando, FL
catherwood wrote:
ItWasntMeISwear wrote:
Besides, you are the puppetmaster of the game. You should be able to say what information is available and what information is not and when it will become available.

Well, to some extent, yes, you can run your world any way you see fit. However, I as a player I want your world to have depth and realism. If I think the game pushed me to be searching for a blog or a file or whatever, then the game needs to have an explanation for why it didn't already exist. There is nothing so maddening as to have someone else beat me to a find, when I had just been looking for it an hour ago! For example, if the players are meant to dig thru police files and court records for a past conviction, those bits of data need to already exist. That's the illusion of TINAG for me, that the world and its past events have left their footprints for us to follow back in time, as well as leading forward.


Totally agree, Catherwood ... the illusion that you can push as far against the edges as possible is key to that. It's definitely a detail-oriented task, just like making sure props are consistent from scene to scene in a movie: you only know that it's done right if no one notices what a great job you did.

Some concrete examples of where we were saddened by "brute forcing" on Heist would definitely have to involve the passwords on ZIP files being brute forced -- trying, via script, every possible password into to open it without actually solving the puzzle that lead to it. Our adaptation was to make the passwords obscenely difficult to brute force.

We assumed that the "evil cube" was going to be a manual solve, and when the community developed modeling software that generated every single word across three-dimensional grids with character offsets ... well, for some reason that didn't feel like a brute force at all because of how beautifully elegant it was. And how many revisions it took to find non-standard words and the like.

I bring up the two above because, on some level, they are technically the same act ... namely "using an automated process to brute force solve all potential solutions and report results". One felt "brute force" (because it bypassed a puzzle) and one didn't (because it was in service of solving a puzzle provided.)

So I think any good definition of brute focing we come up with in an ARG context should be about the intent of use as much as the use itself.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:35 am
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