unforum

[BBuck]

[Maxamus]

I think that the two square grids could be the way to go if we knew the order of the letters

[ALISDAIRPARK]

Thanks BBuck, done & done.

[fretty]

I definitely think that the two square cipher is the way but I mensioned it on page 5. No worries anyway.

[BBuck]

*Considers complicated reverse almost trouting of fretty, as Maxamus didn't claim to be original about the two-square, but decides risk of disappering up own orifice too great*

The two-square cipher is definitely a possibility. But as Alisdair said, it's going to be very difficult to crack with such a short amount of text, unless you've got the keyphrase.

I've tried using "Professor Hale" on various of the sets of letters we've generated, but only get gibberish. Of course, this assumes we've got the letters from numbers bit right somewhere down the line.

I'm still a bit sceptical about this route, as I can't see many other pointers to a keyphrase on the card, and we can't use frequency analysis. But there's two things we could look for to help rule this in or out:

i) the cipher can create ciphertext that is the same as plaintext ("transparency" - learn something new, etc). Wiki reckons on about 20% of diagraphs stay the same. We're working with 22 of them, so there should be around 4 or 5 (though, of course, no guarantees there will be so many). So worth looking at whether the digraphs could be plaintext. This won't be exact: the first character of could be the last of a word, and the second beginning another. But JK is probably not a transparency, for example, and so we could get a feel for how many digraphs could be transparent. If there's none or one, then this suggests it's probably not a two-square.

ii) the two-square uses 25 letters. Wiki suggests dropping "q" or combining "i/j". Again, it won't be definitive, but if the ciphertext obtained from a grid or other method includes both q and j, then it's probably not a two-square.

Aargh! I hate using probably so much. That's the problem with this card: we won't know when/if we've got the numbers to letters conversion right, and so could be using the right third cipher without getting anywhere.

[GasparLewis]

Another common tactic is to drop "w" and just use "uu".

Unless they plan on hiring a duumvirate of cleaners to vacuum their dorm while graphing the space-time continuum, there are very few problems with that system.

(-uu- words)

[bertyb]

Does anybody have a list of all the oldest ciphers - perhaps on a timeline or something? - Just trying to link the history thing.

[AngusA]

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_cipher

[ramsfan]

Thanks. Had a look at that, and then thought I'd look at Playfair in case it was relevant to Shuffled. I was familiar with it through Simon Singh's book, but I was struck by the fact that there are 600 digraphs. When we did the grid before I think the 24x25 was a bit arbitrary. Sorry if I didn't understand, but it strikes me that this gives us a different numbering system, in that you'd miss out BA if you'd already counted AB etc. I will try to do this tonight but I think some people are much quicker at this kind of thing, so thought I'd share the idea first.

[ALISDAIRPARK]

If you make the grid based on unique letter combinations, i.e. AB=BA, then I think you only get 325 options

[ramsfan]

thanks. of course you're right. I was forgetting that it uses a 25 letter alphabet, discounting q or j or uniting i and j into one letter. How it gets 600 digraphs is by using this 25 letter alphabet, putting an x or a q after the first letter of any double letter combination so aa becomes ax or aq. I do think that would give us a different number sequence, and unfortunately it will give us a few systems depending on whether it's q or j or i/j that we eliminate, and whether we choose x or q for the second letter. perhaps there's a convention, i don't know. don't think i'll have time to do it tonight, and no doubt it will be fruitless, but it could be a new approach. who knows we may even discover why hally found some interesting letters. however xy isn't going to be the last digraph in this sequence, so this was all a waste of time. it was just that number 600 which got me going

[Poseidon]

just my 2c:
Assuming a two-square is a likely cipher, has anyone tried brute forcing keyphrases like exam, etc (from the text already translated)?

[Maxamus]

Hi This is in reference to the two hill cipher

Has anyone tried using 'Count Ont' as the starting letters to the grid?

I will try but its always best if more than one person attempts the same thing as mistakes can be made

Will let you guys know

[t-p not logged in]

Have you thought "ciphers of history" could mean ciphers in history class? They could be in a history lesson, and the "ciphers of history" are the notes they pass around.

This meaning, everyone is looking into historical ciphers, but that may not be the case, it could be something modern.

I don't have this card yet, i don't know, but im suprised noone thought that.

[Yembles]

The piece of paper above the encoded message shows that this is a maths lesson. Unless they teach differentiation and integration in history now.

I'm surprised you didn't see/read that...