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Knowing Your Audience (continued discussion from the #PMChat
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imbri
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Knowing Your Audience (continued discussion from the #PMChat

This was a great chat on "Knowing Your Audience" with an extra bonus discussion on player agency right at the end. There's lots of good stuff on audience that we just touched on and, I'm sure, that there's much more to be said. So, feel free to use this thread to continue to the discussion.

I've tried to break up the chat as logically as possible to make it a little easier to digest. I'm sure I could have done a better job of it, but I think we can deal with it as is...

Different Audiences
How to attract players and where would they play if they didn't know about unfiction?
What draws people into ARGs? What entices them to play?
Does the game attract/repel it's audience?
UF vs Non-UF
Designing for multiple audiences
Homework for next week
Post Chat Discussion

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:20 am

imbri
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Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

Different Audiences

Different Audiences
To recap:
ARGN/UF/IU: despite the IU/UF differences, it is a very similar audience in that they're comprised of rather "hardcore" players that are already aware of the ARG genre.

Fanboys/girls: people that are active fans of a particular video game, movie, tv show, genre, etc.

Preselected audiences: could be private games (corporate training games, games for a local club/organization/university) or they could be public games but for a more specific random crowd of people (festival goers, people walking down a specific street, library members, grocery shoppers, etc.)
.

<imbri> must of us are here, i assume, because of unfiction and argn... right
<CreativeEmbassy> I'm here because of IU :-p
<MasterCheese> Although most ARGs seemed to be tailored towards UF
<RungeKutta> largest audience, I think a lot of people dont know about IU
<imbri> in our minds, yes
<imbri> but, there's a whole internet out there
<imbri> and some play things that are very arg-like
<catherwood> MC, by "the UF audience" do you mean people who already know what an ARG is, or something more about the personality types here?
<MasterCheese> I'd say more the personality types, the ones that always try to play as a group, rather than as individuals
<SirQuady> or just hardcore ARG nuts
* catherwood keeps forgetting that people treat IU as a separate audience base
<MasterCheese> Occasionally
<imbri> there's very little difference, really, between IU and UF
<imbri> they're both communities that have a very active very hardcore player base
<CrustyBottom> Except that Unfiction (via ARGN) get's most of the press.
<imbri> but as far as an audience is concerned, they are the same type of audience
<SirQuady> does anyone know of any other forums that have lots of ARG players talking about ARGs? I mean, if i'm going to PM a game, i want to know whos talking about the game, right?
<MasterCheese> And IU is in a constant threat of closing down
<imbri> (let us NOT turn this into an IU vs UF debate)
* SirQuady agrees
<catherwood> the Bungie forums and Penny Arcade seem to be another potential player base
<imbri> (it's been done to death, there's no reason to do it again)
<MasterCheese> It depends what your ARG is based on really
<CrustyBottom> I'm just saying that not a lot of people (the new ones that show up) know about IU because it's not marketed as well as UF.
<imbri> I'd argue that ANY online forum is a potential player base
<SirQuady> Well, yeah. When i read imbri's post on UF about potential audiences, i thought...
<SirQuady> what about fanboys/girls?
<Hellion> the key word there being "potential", imbri.
<imbri> and that's what metacortechs hit on
<imbri> well, if you're designing an arg, it's all about "potential"
<CreativeEmbassy> When PMing .hack, we had nice audiences at both IU and the .hack forums
<SirQuady> If i were to make an ARG that takes place in...say... the Stargate universe, then i'll have to be searching the Stargate fansites alot
<MasterCheese> And the main player base of ILB wasn't UF or IU, it was the Halo fancoys/girls
<catherwood> you can draw fans in with your content, but do you attract the "puzzle mentality" people, the curious who will want to play a game at all?
<MasterCheese> *fanboys
<Hellion> yeah, ILB drew a lot of people in from other communities.
<imbri> and that's a very important point catherwood
<Hellion> they had to ban ILB talk from the HBO forums...
<RungeKutta> MC: IU isn't going to close down, btw
<imbri> when you're designing your game play and story telling, you have to look at your audience
<CreativeEmbassy> catherwood: depends on your audience entirely. If you're targeting a group that jsut loves drama and isn't into puzzles, then you either remove puzzles or make them VERY easy...
<SirQuady> Plus, i figure that i'll have to make it pretty close to the backstory of the universe ot keep the fanboys/girls involved
<MasterCheese> RK: I know
<RungeKutta> Also, Errant Memories drew in a lot of new people, though I dont know how many stuck around.
<imbri> so, so far, we've come up with 2 different audiences
<imbri> the hardcore players (uf/iu/argn)
<SirQuady> and the fanboys/girls?
<imbri> the fanboys/girls
<SirQuady> booyeah
<Hellion> not much, Ciaran.
<imbri> in my regular games, I don't deal with either of those audiences
<imbri> I've got a private preselected audience
<CrustyBottom> "hardcore" is a pretty broad audience.
<CreativeEmbassy> good point imbri
<imbri> that could be people in a class or at a university, people at a specific company, people that read a certain newspaper
<Hellion> hm... you choose your audience.
<varin> potential audiences can be anywhere... festival goers, people walking down a specific street, library members, grocery shoppers, etc.

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:20 am

imbri
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Location: wonderland

How to attract players

How to attract players and where would they play if they didn't know about unfiction?
Ads/blog ads
Create ingame forums
Direct players to Unfiction
Hook people in a specific community: have to keep in mind that community during the game design! (ie UFO enthusiasts may tend to favor conspiracy theories)

<SirQuady> how about the people who get hooked? Like, for AotH, they had all those ads in Times Square and stuff, and for WIBS we're getting alot of people who found the site through blog ads. So basically, the people who get hooked by ads and storys about the ARG
<Ciaran> I was the person who first found the site in Unfiction, and I found it via a blog ad, if that helps.
<Ciaran> WIBS, I mean.
<CreativeEmbassy> for S32, brennan's new game, he made his own forums, and a community is slowly forming over there
<SirQuady> cool
<Hellion> well, not that it was actually an ARG, but OurCOlony had forums.
<Hellion> so did LCP...
<CreativeEmbassy> so a combination of not just the hardcore players from UFIUARGN, but other people he talked to from other communities that he thought would like the game
<SirQuady> yeah, forums help. Unless someone points you to UF/IU/ARGN, you don't really know what to do with ARGs that didn't have forums
<SirQuady> Especially if you have a trailhead out in public somewhere, then you have to think of the people who will see that as your potential audience
<imbri> yep
<imbri> and they probably don't have a clue that unfiction/argn/iu exists
<SirQuady> well, thats how i found ARGs
<SirQuady> random ILBees stuff
<imbri> and, unless uf/argn/iu finds that trailhead, a google won't direct players there
<RungeKutta> imbri : we kind of tried that with Wildfire
<Ciaran> I can't remember how I found ARGs.
<SirQuady> i only found UF just like 2 months ago
<SirQuady> while i've known of ARGs for like a year
<imbri> so, we know that there are players outside of uf/argn - it's a huge untapped market - like everyone in the world
<catherwood> i actually don't remember how i went from TV ads for "Push, NV" to finding a community to work with
<dmax> true, cather. how'd THAT happen?
<imbri> but you can't just design a game for "everyone in the world" so how do you limit it?
<SirQuady> Well, in some way, every ARG has a partial goal to pull new people into the Genre, even if the PMs arent conciously thinking about it
<dmax> i forget, as well
<varin> I think I searched for Push and then found CD which led me to UF
<CreativeEmbassy> there's an easy solution if you're making a game off an existing world, just find people who like that world
<SirQuady> Fanboys/girls!
<CreativeEmbassy> and launch to them
<CreativeEmbassy> if you're making a new world however...
<SirQuady> what about doing stuff like limiting real life events and such, to only a certian area of the world
<imbri> how else could you attract fan boys & girls?
<catherwood> but launching to Halo fans drew in a lot of people who didn't like the idea of a "fake" story at all!
<CrustyBottom> Create character fan-sites.
<SirQuady> try to find some hook of other communities? Like, Dave Szulborski said in TINAG, that for one of his games they put lots of posts from a character into Urban Legends pages.
<catherwood> you're really helping people "self select", offering product to many but hoping a few are a good match
<SirQuady> maybe if not launching to people interested a world, at least a topic?
<CreativeEmbassy> a meta page, though breaking the curtain a lil, helps collect players
<SirQuady> like WIBS's alien stuff / Ancient history? A bunch of people joined in from interests in those topics
<silentpyjamas> there's always "letting people in on a secret" or some "news" ahead of time. people like being special and they like being in the know.
<imbri> ooo, i may derail this for a moment, but SirQuady triggered something for me
<imbri> with the WIBS alien stuff... getting people in that are interested in that topic
<imbri> so they have attracted a certain audience
<imbri> and one, i assume, that's rather oriented towards "conspiracy theories"
<SirQuady> same with some of the other games, AotH got a bunch of people who were into Audis and some who were intersted in the whole "Art theft" part of it
<imbri> so, the game design has to reflect that to a degree
<SirQuady> like with debunkette's debunking conspiracy theories and such?
<dmax> sorry, but when/if i design a game - the unfiction crowd will be the last to hear about it
<imbri> it has to play up to their interests and their natural inclinations of looking at the world

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:22 am

imbri
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Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

What draws people into ARGs? What entices them to play?

What draws people into ARGs? What entices them to play?
"the discovery"
"game" vs "not a game": boundaries � how to create them, should they be created?
"HOAX!"

<dmax> the fun, with Push, was the discovery
<dmax> there is very little fun now, i think
<dmax> unless you're a newbie
<dmax> hence: the successful launch, if you want shock and awe, is to virgins
<imbri> i dunno, i had loads of fun with LCP
<dmax> and that's why ILB was so intriguing
<SirQuady> or stuff thats totally new?
<dmax> (although CTW - advertising itself from the get go - was fun)
<SirQuady> like, adding a whole new angle to the reality of the game or something. It's a little hard to do, but possible
<imbri> and, to a point with what dmax is saying, i think i had so much fun with it because it was so much a "game"
* dmax notices that he has to make sure that his game has a 3 letter mnemonic
<imbri> it was different from what UF usually plays
<RungeKutta> dmax : that's very important
<imbri> and that's what attracted me towards it
* dmax calls dibs on "
<CreativeEmbassy> lol
<dmax> BFD"
<CreativeEmbassy> i lost my virginity to projcet syzygy, but realized that was a bad idea
<CreativeEmbassy> and the relationship didn't last
<dmax> then you separate out the goal: immersive, confusing, possibly real "experience" OR
<dmax> a game. have a seat and get your token
<CreativeEmbassy> so I got a second virginity, and lost it to wildfire industries
<dmax> slut
<CreativeEmbassy> which was MUCH more satisfyisng Very Happy

<silentpyjamas> i disagree dmax. i think that you can create an atmoshpere that encourages suspension of disbelief even if the game events are completely unbelievable
<catherwood> i think the UF/IU crowd is much more attuned to the "immersive" than the rest of the world is, while outsiders are more receptive to an acknowledged GAME
<imbri> and cather, i think they even want more of an acknowledged game
<imbri> people, in my experience, crave the boundaries
<catherwood> just looking at all the "HOAX!" posts in the WiBS forum tells me they need to be held by the hand and TOLD it's a game
<imbri> (heck, even UF people do... not that they'll admit it)
<CrustyBottom> You hear that a lot on the UF boards.
<dmax> i think that's a fault of the players, not the game
<dmax> the reassurance needed
<imbri> i disagree.
<dmax> you wait for that one slip where the web registration tells you "whew, it's dave!"
<catherwood> if you need to educate your target audience before they can play, perhaps they are not your target audience to begin with.
<imbri> though i'm not much of a fan of blaming players for stuff Wink

<imbri> catherwood: exactly
<dmax> no, i mean that - rather than help players over the anxiety of "is it a game" - I'd simply ignore it.
<dmax> cather said: " tells me they need to be held by the hand and TOLD it's a game"
<dmax> i wouldn't act on that
<Ciaran> I personally think t hat in most ARGs, there's a clear line drawn that quite clearly says "This is a game". But with WIBS, that isn't there.
<Ciaran> The Beast, while remaining perfectly consistent within itself and managing to effectively portray that it wasn't a game, gives itself away at the outset by being set in 2142.
<imbri> and isn't that what UF is always screaming they want
<dmax> of course, there are situations where you'd need to make it clear. for instance, if the game plot meant that the police might accidentally be called.
<Ciaran> Being set in 2142 makes it very hard for people to point and say "Hey, this is a hoax!", because if it's set in 2142, it's fairly obvious.
<imbri> yep
<Ciaran> The same thing for Haunted Apiary.
<Ciaran> And all the other good ARGs.
<imbri> and lockjaw and metacortechs and most games
<dmax> but Urban Hunt was more contemporary
<Ciaran> Not saying WIBS isn't good.
<dmax> as was CTW
<Ciaran> Just that WIBS doesn't have that clear line.
<imbri> dmax: lockjaw and metacortechs both took place in the present
<dmax> missed them both
<imbri> but they had strong indications of boundaries
<Ciaran> It does for UF people because we know who GMD are. To everybody else, though, GMD are a scheming marketing company who wants to sell stuff to you.
<Ciaran> And you can't blame them for thinking that.
* dmax wants to create a game that makes players afraid and anxious that they might REALLY screw it up.
<imbri> if you look at the way a toddler explores the world
<imbri> you notice that they are ALWAYS trying to push the boundaries
<imbri> they say "no" until they actually find where that setting is
<imbri> they put things in their mouths
<imbri> they try to get out of their crib
<imbri> etc etc etc
<imbri> (those are all bad examples)
<imbri> but they explore teh world by finding the boundaries
<imbri> gamers do this to
<silentpyjamas> they put clay in the power socket?
<imbri> you run to the edge until you just see the forever forest
<imbri> and you're running in place
<imbri> argers are no different, they will push the boundaries until they find the edge of their world
<catherwood> does GMD care which kind of people stay to play? Are they a scheming marketing company just looking for 1-time visitors and buzz? Or is there a "gaming" audience to be won?
<imbri> i think probably a combination of that
<imbri> they're do a lot of marketing work, so they want the numbers and the buzz
<catherwood> individual PMs might care more about people enjoying their creative product, and thus will care more about finding and _keeping_ players
<imbri> but brian's background is in film - he obviously has stories that he wants to tell
<Ciaran> We should get Brian in here at some point.
<dmax> so, to satiate the player - who you know will continue on into infinity looking for the wall of the dome over the game, you'd have to have the gaming terrain morph invisibly into the real world, so that there's no clear dichotomy
<catherwood> dmax is targeting just one kind of player there
<Ciaran> Except that then you don't have a game as such.
<imbri> yeah, and a huge minority in the total player audience
<catherwood> there is also an audience who likes to read, another who likes to pop in on occasion, another who craves the emails, etc.
<imbri> because when players can't find the boundaries, they become very anxious and nervous
<dmax> but that person, who bothers to find the boundaries, always reports back
<CrustyBottom> On that note, I e-mailed Eric Heisserer and he said that he might stop in sometime.
<dmax> he explores and then tells everyone that he's foudn them
<Ciaran> I'm always scared of the idea of pushing things too far into reality. One thing that I *don't* want to do is to have my players think this is real life.
<dmax> so, it's a small minority - but a functional one
<dmax> like grumpyboy is the one who solves the puzzles for us. Smile

<varin> heh
<Ciaran> If my players think it's real life, they feel betrayed when bad things happen, like a character dies. I mean, y ou just *don't* mess with players' feelings like that. It's stupid and irresponsible.
<imbri> but can you count on those players
<dmax> see, Ciaran, that "I'm always scared..." thing is what interests me.
<imbri> i can't in my small private games
<silentpyjamas> i agree dmax
<dmax> i don't understand why messing with feelings is stupid
<dmax> it's the nature of most good literature
<Ciaran> Messing with feelings isn't stupid. But it is when they think it's real life.
<imbri> and, dmax, in most good literature, you know the boundaries
<silentpyjamas> i write, and my purpose is usually to affect people. why should it be different for an "enacted story?"
<imbri> you have the book in your hands to tell you that it's not your reality
<dmax> so we could bring up the nonfiction author who really wrote fiction
<silentpyjamas> that's true, but the stated purpose of arg's is to be just like not a game
<Ciaran> Anybody who thinks it isn't stupid should go to LiveJournal and see the community fake_lj_deaths.
<dmax> he messed with minds - but it was a game
<dmax> ooh - really, Ciaran? I'm heading there..
<catherwood> silentpyjamas, i'm not sure that definition is working any more
<CrustyBottom> The publisher marketed the book at Fiction... it wasn't written for fiction.
<CrustyBottom> as*
<catherwood> the stated purpose (if there is one) is to be a game and a story and a world we can treat as if it were real -- the game might not think it is a game, but we certainly do
<dmax> well, that's the specific story of that book - but I'm thinking of the more general idea. if the tale is "real" (oooooh!) but turns out to be fake...then what
<Ciaran> Look at it this way. You create another LJ account. You do it so well, and you gain a number of friends on that LJ account, some of which you communicate with regularly on that account.
<Ciaran> Then that character dies.
<imbri> (we are getting really off topic here
<Ciaran> If THAT isn't clearly irresponsible, I don't know what is.
<imbri> that goes to the whole kaycee nichole hoax
<Ciaran> imbri: Not really. It's still about knowing your audience.
<imbri> or however that name is spelled
<imbri> yeah, i know, i was deleting that
<imbri> but hit enter instead
<catherwood> Ciaran, knowing your audience is gullible?
<Ciaran> imbri: http://www.rootnode.org/article.php?sid=26
<imbri> ok, so no h in the nichole
<imbri> but yes, that's exactly what that is
<Ciaran> I meant to put a ? after that, but, yeah.
<catherwood> this would be a much simpler topic if it were about knowing whether your audience is "adult content" versus "family friendly"
<Ciaran> Okay.
<imbri> people didn't know the boundaries and it really pissed a bunch of people off
<imbri> cath, it would
<catherwood> they say that children cannot distinguish reality from fantasy
<tomtom> Am I a children?
<silentpyjamas> well, in a case like that, maybe it would be prudent to give the players some hint that it's a game, with puzzles or something first, a direction to go in before a character dies

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:22 am

imbri
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Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

Does the game attract/repel it�s audience?

Does the game attract/repel it's audience?

<dmax> Does one tailor a game for an audience, or does the game attract/repel its own audience?
<dmax> Is this a matter of figuring out "bait"
<imbri> excellent question dmax
<dmax> if I were creating a game, would I be hoping to reel in those GameCube kids?
<catherwood> i hate it when my favorite TV show kills off a character -- but if i cannot deal with that "reality", then i shouldn't be watching TV.
<silentpyjamas> i think a game attracts its own audience. i've been thinking about making a game, it's what i've wanted to do for a long time, and in the time i have been thinking about it i have come up with scads of ways to create an audience to fit this particular game
<dmax> or would I be writing a great game, launching it _somewhere_ and then seeing who cares?
<imbri> and what happens when your story attracts, say, a drama stay at home mom crowd
<imbri> (very soap opera)
<imbri> and yet your puzzles are all rather difficult ciphers
<dmax> and THAT is why unfiction would never see the launch
<imbri> you need to know your audience
<dmax> i would never tailor a game for you folks.
<imbri> and know what types of people are going to be attracted to your story and to the puzzles etc
<RungeKutta> dmax : well just call yourself 0x2a
<imbri> you can't just throw out some nearly unbreakable codes to a bunch of people that can't even figure out ROT
<imbri> the game will stall
<silentpyjamas> i think it's a matter of placing your stuff where you want it to be seen and by whom you want to target, and then making sure that there's a place for everyone who's doing that same thing, to find one another
<dmax> it would be more fun to have a plot driven game - and then have a stay at home dad go "whoa! I don't know vignere! who can I team with that would help? I must need to be in contact with someone else to get through this!"
<RungeKutta> you know who would be good to talk about that, the Omnifam people
<silentpyjamas> i think creating a community is a big deal, because maybe some people would already be players, and even if the majority weren't, you'd still have someone in there with a clue
* imbri pokes bill and varin
<varin> puzzles that would have been solved in minutes by UFers were never solved on the Alias forums
<varin> The final dead drop didn't happen because they couldn't or wouldn't solve the final puzzle
<silentpyjamas> maybe one thing to think about is multiple places and ways to lure in potential player
<silentpyjamas> s
<imbri> absolutely, if you're going for a large broad audience
<imbri> but i don't think that's always necessary
<imbri> i don't think you should ever just have one rabbithole Smile

<silentpyjamas> maybe not even that, because i suspect that some of it would thin down rather quickly, i think that the people who are most sttracted to what's happening, people with innate curiosity and who like to find "easter eggs" and hidden messages will catch on and maybe stay on
<imbri> again, if that's the type of ARG that you're creating
<imbri> do all ARGs have to be about the secrets?
<RungeKutta> about as much as any other adventure game is, heh
<imbri> we, of course, have a very strong bias towards that because those are the games that we usually play
<silentpyjamas> hmm no, but i have something particular in mind i think. but i do think that people are naturally curious and if you can figure out how to hook that you can pull them in
<imbri> silentpyjamas: agreed
<SnuBear> yea
<imbri> and people don't like knowing that there's something that they could easily figure out but just haven't
<silentpyjamas> mm

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:23 am

imbri
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Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

UF vs Non-UF

UF vs Non-UF
Implications of designing for a non-uf crowd
Weaknesses of UF
Elements of an ARG
Elements of an ARG audience

<imbri> ok, ehsan had a great question before he left us to go to sleep
<RungeKutta> what a wimp
<imbri> it's gonna shift us back a bit
<imbri> <Ehsan> How can you design a game for communities other than UF, without hurting UF's feelings
<RungeKutta> why would it hurt anyone's feelings?
<silentpyjamas> i was wondering that myself lol
<varin> The UFers could join the other community or not
<imbri> heh, well, i think we've all seen uf (over)react at games that weren't really meant for them
<imbri> "this is stupid!" "this isn't right!" "gah! those people over there are a bunch of maroons!"
<RungeKutta> imbri : well I was going to mention that, but I decided I didn't know if someone would get pissed or not
<varin> I think that's probably a vocal minority though
<guy_partly_absent> I think there's probably ways to justify the style of the game within the game
<silentpyjamas> that sounds like it would be debilitating, to only focus games all the time on one community
<CrustyBottom> "Turn the channel", that's what I say. Smile

<RungeKutta> varin : Yea I think it falls under the "With the birth of the artist is the afterbirth, the critic" category
<silentpyjamas> heheh mel brooks
<RungeKutta> mel brooks is cool
<silentpyjamas> yessir
<varin> there will always be those who enjoy complaining even if its only for the sake of complaining
<imbri> yep
<imbri> i am not looking at myself, nope, not at all, not me, uhuh
<Sin_Vraal> hey i just got here, no making fun of me
<CrustyBottom> Smile

* varin complains a bit about those people
<RungeKutta> Sin_Vraal : that's after you go to bed
* dmax looks for a place to file complaint against varin
<guy_partly_absent> I think Sable & Shuck was a good example: from a UF perspective it was soooooo slow, but they clearly had their own agenda
<silentpyjamas> i guess i sort of see it the other way around. the game should exist for the sake of itself, whoever comes into it is merely a participant.
<imbri> yep, great point guy
<imbri> and that hits on something cath brought up when ehsan told me his question
<Sin_Vraal> i complained to varin once. she strategicallt spit at me while i was yawning. gross.
<imbri> <catherwood> a side question to that one is: if you DO design a game for a non-UF community, how do you prevent UF seasoned players from overrunning the virgin territory?
<guy_partly_absent> However, they never made reference to their own agenda, justified the pace either in an IG or OOG way, or anything
<RungeKutta> I think that can be helped with the story
<guy_partly_absent> Or the bigger question: is it possible?
<RungeKutta> unless all you have are easy puzzles
<guy_partly_absent> We like ARGs, so if you've made one, we're gonna play it, unless we can't get to it
<guy_partly_absent> But: is that so bad?
<dmax> sable and shuck WERE interesting. classy looking, interesting premise. acted like it was encased in amber
<guy_p> I know, the quality was excellent, hence the frustration
<dmax> when does it explode?
<guy_p> But I felt they saw us more a bunch of whiners than an asset
<guy_p> They might have had a point Smile

<varin> we like ARGs and want to play them when we find them, but then should we complain about "ARGs" that we find that don't stand up to our definitions?
<imbri> varin: agreed
<catherwood> varin, we can complain if they misuse the label 'ARG' to mislead an audience
<CrustyBottom> Shouldn't but do. Smile

<imbri> who are we to demand that they design to us
<silentpyjamas> zackly
<guy_p> Well, it depends if there's a difference between complaining and... thinking it's bad
<dmax> knowing your audience: short-attention span stay-at-homers who wait impatiently for the next thing to be sat in their lap, or folks with a life who can only attack it step by step?
<silentpyjamas> you could cater to both
<imbri> hardcores vs casuals vs lurkers
<dmax> folks who are awake all hours of the day, because this is all they can do successfully - or folks who can only get to the game a few times a week and have a helluvatime catching up on myriad plot twists
<RungeKutta> hahaha nice dmax
<guy_p> But traditionally, it's the first lot of folks who support the second lot of folks
<varin> I think any online "live" game has that problem
<dmax> folks with a deep background knowledge of the subject matter, or folks who are so young or undereducated as to miss the backstory
<guy_p> Then again, maybe that's just because the games are so twisty it necessistates it
<dmax> (when Dave S veers into mythology, some people eat it up like M&Ms, but I"m completely ignorant)
<imbri> (you and me both)
* dmax sings Kumbaya
<guy_p> i don't know if you touched on this earlier, but i think it's interesting that 42 pretty much include UF amongst their "strengths" (from their website)
<dmax> i want a commission
<varin> ready made group of players?
<RungeKutta> I think dmax is correct there
<RungeKutta> consumers to market to
<guy_p> they "Kick-start the campaign with a core group of loyalists", in their own words
<guy_p> so, you know, we aren't all terrible gamewreckin' mofos
<dmax> it's like when a reporter comes up to a person. I'm surprised that the response isn't: "You get paid for this? Then I want a piece of your action if I'm helping you do your job."
<guy_p> I think one of the reasons of forumspite is that ARGs are made up of so many ingredients, and everyone gives a different weight to each element
<dmax> back to the topic: how, do you think, does one come to know one's audience?
<RungeKutta> guy_p : well I think if anyone publiclly shared displeasure for 42, they'd have a fight on their hands
<RungeKutta> which is pretty cool for 42
<guy_p> Like, a book is a book, it's made up of characters, setting, plot
<guy_p> ARGs: People like the puzzles. Others are into the story. Some want it slower, others faster, others can't stand OOGness, and so on and so forth
<catherwood> does an author write a western because he wants that demographic for $$, or just because he likes to write westerns and is good at it?
<dmax> I appreciate 42's existence. SOMEone had to step into that role. It's like Warhol - SOMEone was gonna come up with those ideas - he just did it first. Same with 42: the niche of commercialization of ARGs was eventually going to happen.
<catherwood> first you decide you want to write a western, and THEN decide how to find that audience?
<silentpyjamas> i think so
<guy_p> Again, the audience is mostly prebuilt I think, the better parallel is "how do i get people who don't usually read westerns to read *my* western?"
<catherwood> or, as a PM, are you saying "I sure would like to tap into that group of people who like poker" and then figure out how to write something they'll like?
<silentpyjamas> once you know what you're writing, you can expand your feelers to find peripheral ways to attract people
<CrustyBottom> You already have a "target market"... people who enjoy reading western stories.
<dmax> well, catherwood, wouldn't it depend on the job of the writer: hired gun to clean up a book for sale - versus someone who's writing as an "artiste"
<CrustyBottom> It's how you market the book that decides who buys it.
* silentpyjamas nods
<dmax> the cover
<dmax> where you put it
<CrustyBottom> That, plus the back, any articles written about it, etc.
<silentpyjamas> the language you use on it
<guy_p> Does anyone think there are strong, potentially ARG-friendly audiences out there, that aren't tied to specific existing IP?
<catherwood> but an ARG audience is more than tastes in stories, it's also a skill set, and available time slots, and so much more overlapping
<dmax> those oily, bulky men leaning over their scantily clad women as magnolias bloom all around them...
<silentpyjamas> :O
<CrustyBottom> cath: I would agree. But I would also say that the way that you choose to market your game results in who decides to play it.
<dmax> guy, i do. i think that there are thousands of people - most of them not speaking english? - that are ARG friendly folks.
<crouchosarus> So, if I wanted to make an ARG, I would make it around an audience not make it then find an audience is what your saying?
<dmax> at least for a while
<imbri> guy: i absolutely think so
<guy_p> It depends what the defining quality of your audience is, I suppose
<CrustyBottom> You will already have an audience of sorts. There is not a story that you can think of that doesn't have a higher subtext to it.
<imbri> i think it also depends on the type of game
<guy_p> If your audience is content-specific, like "ballet dancers", than that informs your whole storyline
<imbri> i think that the model of ARG prefered by uf is only one such model
<CrustyBottom> Mysteries
<imbri> and, frankly, i think it has some huge weaknesses
<guy_p> Such as?
<CrustyBottom> Most, if not all ARGs' fall under the "mystery" catagory of story.
<crouchosarus> So like if I made a Halo ARG I would not need to find an audience, I would just make sure Halo nerds (or n00bs) knew it was coming out
<guy_p> Umm, isn't that the same thing?
<imbri> a weakness in the game design prefered by uf?
<catherwood> do you do research first, to find out if there even is a group of people who both like westerns (forexample) AND can do ciphers?
<guy_p> imbri: yes
<imbri> i think that it's very lurker unfriendly
<imbri> and, even moreso, tends to reject casual gameplay
<imbri> they are designed for hard core players
<silentpyjamas> maybe it's that the uf audience has come to expect certain things, while the wider world is probably completely unaware of them
<dmax> agree - that's why i haven't played a real game in a while
<imbri> yep
<imbri> and it's cyclical
* silentpyjamas nods
<dmax> I'm not an unemployed adolescent anymore
* guy_p rocks the unemployed adolescence
<imbri> the games that get the attention get written up on argn, they get the buzz on uf
<imbri> so those games are used as examples
<dmax> enjoy it while you can, guy_p!
<guy_p> I do my best, dmax
<silentpyjamas> well, how many games show up on argn that aren't on uf?
<imbri> to create even more lurker/casual plyaer unfriendly games
<imbri> and so on and so forth etc etc etc
<imbri> very few
<imbri> to none

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:25 am

imbri
Entrenched

Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

Designing for multiple audiences

Designing for multiple audiences
Layers in game design

<guy_p> Can you have a game that's truly multi-layered, do you think?
<imbri> yes, i think you can
<silentpyjamas> guy_p, that's my goal
<imbri> i spent the summer designing one, heh
<RungeKutta> what does "multi-layered" mean?
<guy_p> Because in theory, I find it a bit like, "if this second layer isn't necessary to understand the first, then how can you make it meaningful?"
<crouchosarus> Hmm I think I get the general idea here
<imbri> but, see, guy - you have to make them more parallel
<imbri> where they provide something but aren't essential
<CrustyBottom> A lot of roads leading to the same desitnation.
<silentpyjamas> guy_p, i kind of think of it like, the first layer may be the "game" layer, but for my project the "second layer" is a lot of background and environment and something kind of personal and emotional for the players to get hooked into
<imbri> make a surface story that lurkers can understand and enjoy
<guy_p> Well, take The Da Vinci Code, there's the layer of the "thriller story", but then there's a deeper layer of references to real-life (and utterly fabricated) things. You could enjoy the book (in theory) even if none of the paintings or settings mentioned were real
<guy_p> (That was to RK)
<dmax> CrustyBottom, in my experience, the PMs rarely create ONE good road - never mind multiple
<imbri> make something a bit deeper that the casual player can embrace
<imbri> and make something even deeper that the hardcore player can consume
<RungeKutta> guy_p : aah ok
<guy_p> Yeah, I agree
<silentpyjamas> i think that if you built it up slowly you could bring everyone to the same level or near-same level of interest
<imbri> all the while, the hardcores touch on the aspects used in the surface bits
<crouchosarus> Make multiple good roads, more people will come and try different one. Hardcore people will do every single one? is that the idea?
<guy_p> I think I find that the surface, lurker-friendy levels tend to be a bit unengaging
<imbri> but that's because you aren't a lurker Wink

<silentpyjamas> guy_p, but isn't that the appeal? this could be something perfectly ordinary but it is seemingly not?
<crouchosarus> but for lurkers it rules Wink

<crouchosarus> we aren't lurkers
<imbri> and, really, the various levels could be highly not related
<CrustyBottom> Didn't AOTH do this is some fashion?
<imbri> what if one level was told completely through, i dunno, clips on google video
<crouchosarus> AOTH?
<guy_p> No, I mean they should stand more on their own two-feet (with quality writing, narrative, etc) rather than just be pointers towards the deeper level
<CrustyBottom> Art of the Heist
<guy_p> For instance, Dana's blog from ILB was good, because it was interesting on it's own
<imbri> and they might be a bit viral in nature
<guy_p> Whereas the StolenA3 blog from AOTH was a bit, well, meh - I didn't feel you'd enjoy the game much if you *just* followed that
<imbri> and, yet, they each had something more to them that made the hard cores want to view them even though they weren't super related
<CrustyBottom> They (AOTH) had the web-site that kept the lurkers up to date.
<crouchosarus> what was AOTH
<imbri> art of the heist
<crouchosarus> o whoops
<crouchosarus> i thought was something else
<CrustyBottom> I personally feel like they touched on many levels.
<guy_p> I know I'm not a lurker, but I don't always feel the stuff provided for lurkers is that entertaining, partly because PMs are probably all "But we made all this other stuff! Go and look at that!"
<catherwood> for me, AotH carried on its merry way with the LRR site and the characters, while I spent hours just reading Virgil's background site.
<crouchosarus> but lurkers are people that dont care about that, people who care about all that extra do and become PMs lurkers stay lurkers and that is all they ever will be
<CrustyBottom> And who *didn't* spend hours reading through the e-mails. Smile

<guy_p> I think Scarlett's Story from Perplex City is a good example of something lurker friendly, but it doesn't cover the whole story
<guy_p> You could pretty much follow the whole game from 4 RSS feeds, if you wanted
<RungeKutta> yea I looked forward to the new emails
<RungeKutta> but I didnt know why they stopped, and I never found out why
<catherwood> crouchosarus: "some become PMs and the rest stay lurkers", that's rather the minority ends of the spectrum, plenty of active players do remain players
<crouchosarus> i know
<crouchosarus> but lurkers never become pms
<crouchosarus> and if they do
<CrustyBottom> I think what was interesting about AOTH was that there was a *lot* of content when you reached a certain destination.
<guy_p> (scarlett's story: They never announced why, but I think they sent them to everyone who registered on the PXC teaser site, and so lots of recipients didn't understand they were related, and got pretty flamey)

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:26 am

imbri
Entrenched

Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

Homework & Post Chat chatter

Homework for next week

<imbri> First: Think about one of your favorite stories. It can be from books or movies or a tv show or, even, song lyrics. Doesn't really matter.
<imbri> Second: Now, think about how the author and/or director chose to tell it and try to tell it in another way. Think about the way that changes the storytelling.
<imbri> Third: Make an arg (well, don't make one) but think about how an ARG would tell those stories. Would there be a lot of websites or just a few? Would it be highly interactive or not so much? Would it be riddled with puzzles or would it be more simple? Would it include a lot of live interaction or very litte? You have no budget constraints, you can do whatever you want with it.
<imbri> It'd be really cool if you all wanted to post your ideas on UF (I'll put a thread up there just for that purpose). Inspire each other, look at the other ideas presented and add to them or change them or whatever. If you don't want to post, you don't need to, but do try to think about this a bit.

Post Chat Discussion
A decent discussion on "agency" and args
More on lurkers
(and I deleted a long bit on television/interactive television and how cool my dream tv show would be)

<RungeKutta> well I guess this is pretty much dead
<CrustyBottom> yep
<RungeKutta> and I attribute it all to imbri for saying its done
<imbri> gah!
<imbri> no!
<CrustyBottom> Smile

<imbri> keep talking peoples!
<Ofiuco> I would talk but I came in very, very late!
<imbri> i just wanted to post that before it was done Smile

<CrustyBottom> I have lost brain function... time to reboot.
* imbri tosses out random question
<imbri> to arg or not to arg
<CrustyBottom> ?
<imbri> that is the question
<CrustyBottom> "To 'Alternate Reality Game' or not to 'Alternate Reality Game'"?
<CrustyBottom> Hmmmmm.... missing a few words.
<imbri> ok, to hit a uf audience or to hit a non-uf audience - which is easier
<Ofiuco> uf
<CrustyBottom> Easier or better?
<CrustyBottom> Smile

<guy_p> UF = easy
<Ofiuco> Unfiction is like Instant Audience, just add ARG.
<guy_p> easier, but not necessarily better
<imbri> but if they don't like the arg, they're bastards about it
<Ofiuco> and yet a crapload of people will play anything if it has a puzzle in it *cough*ilb2*cough*
<catherwood> what about the mixed skill sets? on WiBS we have people who are not used to cipher puzzles, mixed with "old pros"
<catherwood> if i solve something which i think is easy, should I hold back and let other people have a shot at a puzzle?
<CrustyBottom> Does that ever happen? Holding back?
<catherwood> well, i did Smile

<CrustyBottom> Smile

<catherwood> i posted "hints", as if i were still thinking up possibilities
<dm[a]x> *cough*NoahBoddy*cough*
<catherwood> in the chat room, i had already given the answer, but on the forums I posted a possible method, and let a newbie figure it out and post the solution
<CrustyBottom> Hmmm... that's not a bad idea.
* dm[a]x has always relied on the kindness of strangers
<Ofiuco> w/rt non-uf, I have a lot of friends who listen to me blather on and on and then say, 'well, that ARG stuff sounds cool but I could never solve x puzzle'
<CrustyBottom> I can only imagine the frustration on your end.
<catherwood> wasn't there a game recently where their forum complained about ARGN people taking over?
<dm[a]x> well, i never solve a puzzle. but character interrelationships is what fascinates me.
<CrustyBottom> I'm a story person. I've never been one for puzzles. Smile

<varin> cather: yeah, there was, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was
<Ofiuco> that's what I tell them.
<Ofiuco> puzzles =/= arg
<catherwood> this is good for next week's homework: take the same game storyline, but design two (or more) ways to present it as an ARG, one with puzzles, one without, different character viewpoints and access, etc
<catherwood> if an ARG launched with zero puzzles, the UF people might complain, but it just might be a great game
<guy_p> if there aren't puzzles, how is it a game?
<catherwood> that's the challenge
<CrustyBottom> You don't need puzzles to qualify as a "game".
<catherwood> if dmax and others say they can't solve puzzle but enjoy the immersion in story, what are they "playing" exactly?
<guy_p> i'd argue that they aren't
<CrustyBottom> Monopoly doesn't have a puzzle, UNO doesn't, etc.
<CrustyBottom> But they are still games.
<Ofiuco> maybe we should define 'puzzle'.
<guy_p> yes, but you still have *agency*
<imbri> you can have agency in args without having puzzles
<guy_p> although i suppose, like i've argued before, the story itself can be a puzzle
<imbri> yep
<CrustyBottom> Hence, "spec"
<guy_p> which is interesting, because it implies that something like Lost is a game
<CrustyBottom> Like any good 'who done it' movie.
<catherwood> define "agency"
<guy_p> the state of being in action or exerting power; "the agency of providence"; "she has free agency"
<imbri> yep
<imbri> better than what i was typing up, thanks guy Smile

<catherwood> story spec, there's something that I've missed lately. Give a lot of "clues" in the character background, then the "puzzle" is just in figuring out their past relationships and secrets -- no ciphers!
<CrustyBottom> Be patient catherwood.
<catherwood> whose baby is Melody carrying!
<CrustyBottom> One will come along, I'm sure. Smile

<catherwood> OMG, you mean Chuck lied about what school he attended!
<catherwood> that kind of discovery is almost more satisfying that solving a grid cipher
<guy_p> So it depends if "your own understanding" is a sufficient outcome to have "agency" toward (if that makes sense)
* CrustyBottom is still grasping "agency"
<RungeKutta> by agency, do you mean an agent performing something or doing an action?
<guy_p> "You do something = something happens"
<catherwood> is agency in the illusion that players have, thinking they control the outcome of the game, whether or not they actually can?
<CrustyBottom> forward motion?
<guy_p> True, given that all games are on rails, is it a bit of a myth?
<Ofiuco> I would agree with CB and say agency is moving through the story
<guy_p> But in Halo: I shoot someone, they die. If I don't shoot, they live. = Agency.
<Ofiuco> discovering more and more of the plot
<dm[a]x> Lost is a puzzle, but not like a grumpyboy sort of puzzle
<CrustyBottom> cause and effect vs. forward motion.
<RungeKutta> guy_p : so agency=an event
<catherwood> dmax, exactly.
<RungeKutta> oh ok
<Ofiuco> in a way, the story happens because they players find it.
* dm[a]x faints when catherwood agrees
<Ofiuco> if they sat there and did nothing, would it still play out?
* CrustyBottom rolls down the hill of implosion
<catherwood> did Stella have it, that sable&shuck game? if puzzle sat unsolved, there was no plot?
<catherwood> but S&S was a contest, so that's a special case
<guy_p> It was more the case that even if a puzzle *was* solved, there was no plot
<CrustyBottom> I think that was the whole discussion we had last week about including puzzles just to have them, etc.
<imbri> runge: agency doesn't have to be an event
<imbri> but it's typically an action
<imbri> and because, in most args, actions are precipitated by puzzles
<guy_p> On a pedantic level, you could say that the action is "reading a site" and the outcome is "gaining knowledge"
<imbri> there's an illusion that puzzles create agency
<CrustyBottom> I feel so "GED" right now. Smile

<crouchosarus> "ged"
<CrustyBottom> dumb
<crouchosarus> k
<crouchosarus> does anyone have a transcript of the whole chat
<CrustyBottom> Imbri will put one up.
<CrustyBottom> Has done so in the past.
<imbri> um, yeah. i'll put one up
<guy_p> Well, take Lost - people are like "argh, will our questions never be answered?" They don't have any 'agency' to discover more. In an ARG, you *can* discover more, at your own pace, possibly by defeating obstacles such as puzzles
<crouchosarus> thx imbri
<imbri> it might be a bit cause i'm dealing with making dinner and stuff
<imbri> but it'll be up tonight sometime Smile

<CrustyBottom> So, in other words, you create "agency".
<CrustyBottom> "Agency" doesn't exist on it's own?
<CrustyBottom> Or is "agency" simply perceived?
<guy_p> Agency is having the ball in your court
<CrustyBottom> got it.
<guy_p> Waiting for ILB to update: you aren't really playing
<guy_p> Going out to answer the phone is an action, and getting new files is an outcome, so I'd argue that's "playing" (even if it's not exactly a puzzle)
<crouchosarus> but only people in one area can "play"
<CrustyBottom> agreed
<catherwood> but with ILB phones, the people at home were tasked with putting the sound clips in order
<guy_p> Indeed, indeed
<crouchosarus> you need to make something where everyone anywhere can "play" which is where puzzles come in
<imbri> but not really
<CrustyBottom> Well, my brain needs to relax before going on with my day. See you next week.
<catherwood> others gave themselves tasks such as writing transcripts
<RungeKutta> that's one aspect
<imbri> because the vast majority of puzzles, i couldn't play with
<Ofiuco> crouch, not everyone can do puzzles
<crouchosarus> no, but more people can
<guy_p> I agree, I don't think an ARG needs puzzles. But it needs "something to do".
<imbri> yep
<catherwood> tasks.
<crouchosarus> it needs something everyone can do
<Ustice-Mobile> interactivity
<catherwood> playing Push,NV i felt compelled to list every name mentioned in the course of the story -- a character list -- but the game didn't assign me that task
<guy_p> And some of those tasks are generated by the community - writing guides, etc
<guy_p> yeah, what catherwood said!
<Ustice-Mobile> but not everyone doing everything
<catherwood> not "something everyone can do" but some THINGS a variety of people can do
<catherwood> multiple tasks are better than a single puzzle
<guy_p> and i'm not arguing that there's anything wrong with just watching things unfold and so on, i'd just argue that it isn't really "playing" so to speak
<catherwood> but then again, it's nice when you get a diverse audience, with players willing to dole out those mundane tasks to themselves
<guy_p> yes, absolutely
<crouchosarus> yeah
<crouchosarus> like
<crouchosarus> real life stuff is good when micxed with other stuff
<guy_p> yup
<Ustice-Mobile> just about everyone likes those elements, though they can be the most costly. balance is needed
<crouchosarus> yeah
<catherwood> but aren't you back to the default ARGN audience mix? Don't talk yourself back into doing puzzles and tasks in the same ratio as we've always seen.
<guy_p> as opposed to... (?)
<catherwood> that's the homework for next week
<catherwood> design the same ARG in two or more different ways
<crouchosarus> that ratio has always worked fine
<catherwood> "always worked fine" for the same limited audience
<guy_p> Lurkers are good. Having lots of active players is good. But sometimes I wonder if trying to encourage lurkers to participate is like watching an ice hockey match and saying "you know, if we made the goals bigger, we could get some of those spectators out onto the ice!"
<crouchosarus> so does D&D and it slowly expands
<imbri> the "lurker problem" is an interesting one because i don't know that it's really a problem
<guy_p> i agree - i think it's more of an active choice than people realise
<spj_afk> why are lurkers a problem? i was afk and missed everything
<crouchosarus> ha ha ha
<imbri> cause i need to edit it a bit (take out parts/joins, timestamps, etc)
<crouchosarus> ooo
<crouchosarus> i just farted reallly load
<guy_p> not a problem, but i think some PMs have Lurker Guilt - "if they really loved the game, they'd post more!"
<crouchosarus> ewwwwww
<imbri> it'll be up probably in about an hour, an hour and a half
<guy_p> thanks, crouch, have a medal
<crouchosarus> i will guy
<silentpyjamas> lurker guilt eh?
<catherwood> yeah, PMs, don't tell me how to enjoy your game
<silentpyjamas> that just seems more like a sort of insecurity. every group has its fringe members
* imbri tells catherwood to spend less time looking through stock photo sites and to post more spec
<crouchosarus> yeah
<catherwood> :p
<imbri> Smile

* crouchosarus is trying to pay attention osoooooo tired
<catherwood> perhaps those PMs need a better way to measure my enjoyment
<crouchosarus> a clap-o-meter!
<catherwood> lurkers don't flat out tell you they're having fun just lurking
<silentpyjamas> but if they keep lurking, they must be getting something out of it, yes?
<crouchosarus> or they are just bored
<guy_p> did you read adrian's stats post of hugeness?
<catherwood> how do you know they are lurking? there's that lack of measurement tools
<silentpyjamas> well, it's on them if they're lurking somewhere they're not interested
<silentpyjamas> but i'd think if they are staying around, they're doing something. maybe they're new and afraid to offer any ideas
<silentpyjamas> maybe they don't feel they have anything to contribute
<crouchosarus> or they, rather than post crap spec, only post stuff they KNOW is right
<guy_p> http://www.mssv.net/archives/000705.shtml
<crouchosarus> and are waiting til they hav a full theory
<silentpyjamas> i enjoyed findingaraya but i didn't participate much because i felt i dind't have anything to add to the group's efforts.
<catherwood> you really want me to post more spec? make a game that revolves around spec and not puzzles.
<imbri> guy, have you seen christy's as well?
<guy_p> yeah, on the ARGSIG list?
<imbri> http://www.cross-mediaentertainment.com/index.php/2006/03/04/top-args-with-stats/
<guy_p> aye, it's top dollar
<silentpyjamas> it seems like as long as someone is lingering, there is some interest and they may have something to contribute. but if you make a game lurker-unfriendly, then people who just may want to observe or learn ho to play, or get their bearings, will feel unwelcomed
<imbri> yeah, it really is

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:27 am

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