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Key Elements in a Successfull ARG
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Ethernull
Boot

Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 47

Key Elements in a Successfull ARG

I have spoken to my partners and we have all agreed to share our design guide for ARG creation. Please consider that this has been used as an internal document and expresses our *opinions* only. There are many different types of players and this document uses some stereotypes. Please do not be offended, we are offering it as a tool as well as a discussion, in hopes that it will help improve the quality of ARGs as well as help new design teams. Also, credit for many of the concepts within goes to this community; the guide was not created in a vacuum.

That being said, here it is:

Key Elements of a Successful A.R.G.

Multi-Layered Level of Play:
The game should be designed in such a way that it can be played by various levels of expertise.
� Lurkers/Browsers that prefer to play by observation follow the story line and plot as it develops and participate in the occasional discussion, interaction or speculation.
� Novice Players that want to contribute but have little experience in puzzles, internet detective work and ARG interactions. These players enjoy contributing to discussions, interacting with characters, finding new clues, speculating and working on less complex puzzles.
� Experienced players that can work on more complex puzzles, conduct extensive internet research and detective work, take action on speculation and theory as well as interact "in game" with characters.
� Expert players, often referred to as "Hard Core" or "Power Gamers" that work individually or in teams, create documentation, advise other players, solve extremely complex puzzles and codes, interact with characters on a regular and ongoing basis and chain together long trails of clues and information.

Targeted Towards Both Genders:
A successful game should be aimed at both Male and Female audiences.
� Male audiences, in general, prefer Action, Adventure, Surprise, Tension and Intrigue.
� Female audiences, in general, prefer realistic characters, depth of personality, interaction, and a compelling story and plot.

Multiple Sub-Stories across Genres:
Ideally, a game should tell layer storylines across different Genres and Themes, interlacing them with the main Plot. Horror, suspense, drama, mystery, romance, comedy, action and adventure can all be included in the same work, highlighting the primary Plot and Story Lines.

Establish Boundaries:
Novice and Experienced players alike desire on some level to be able to observe a definite boundary between the game world and reality. Establishing this boundary early and in such a way that it is obvious even to Novice players will help prevent a feeling of betrayal at the discovery that it is, in fact, a game. It will also help prevent the inevitable cry of "HOAX!".

Trust the Player before asking for their Trust:
It is important to note that very few players will provide you their trust without having your first. This concept permeates the game on all levels, from the Rabbit Hole to the final conclusion. People in general, and internet users more specifically, are hesitant to sign up for a site, forum or service, even if it is free and asks for no personal information, until they have some idea of what that site or service is. People rarely walk behind a closed door if they have no idea what lies behind it, a simple window to observe through is often enough. Do not ask for a players email, name, personal information, phone number or participation until you have established that you are providing them with a quality environment that is secure and confidential, and you have given the same trust that you are asking of them.

Registration sites for the game should show some sample or degree of what lies inside. Players should have some way of holding the game accountable as a real entity, just as you are doing to them with their personal information.

Accept Responsibility:
Accept responsibility for your actions, your characters, and the story. Players are committing time, effort, trust and sometimes money to your game. They are contributing to the Storytelling experience, they take action, solve puzzles, challenge and stimulate you. They bring friends, write blogs and wikis, wait up late for phone calls, instant messages, emails and website updates. Accept the responsibility that comes with the trust and participation as a Coach, Teacher or Project Leader would; take them to the finish. If you create a character that the players will empathize with, interact with and come to love, consider the impact of that character's actions and role in the storyline. What if that character dies? What if they betray the players? What impact will that have emotionally? Is it the impact that you want to have?

Quality:
Strive for Quality in all areas of the game, Design, Art, Character Creation, Interactions, Writing, Technology, Plot, everything.
� Develop a strong story with branching arcs. Develop each branch fully and consider all the possibilities.
� Develop interesting sub plots that cross genres and engage the players interest and imagination.
� Strive for excellence in writing. Grammar, spelling, tone, style and pacing all play a key role.
� Establish characters with a full background, rich personalities, interesting quirks and full identities. Even if the players never know the details, it will influence the characters interactions on subtle levels that will add to the overall quality of the game. Understand the relationships between characters, and what each character knows and feels about the story at each key stage. Document it all.
� Insure that everything, every interaction, every plot device, and every concept is plausible in the context of the game. Do not break the rules of your own reality; it causes the players to question their own methods as well as the entire story that came before.

Interaction:
Interaction is a vital element in ARGs, without it, you have only a story. Strive to include as much interaction as possible without losing the balance needed for Multi-Layered Levels of Play. In each interaction, consider the character in first person, understand what they know, what they don't, how they react to the player, as a part of their reality, communicating with them on the current topic. Maintain the character without falter, and consider their place in your world. Interaction can happen on any level, in any form. Be creative.

Player Agency:
The defining difference between players and spectators is Agency. Players can take action, affecting the game world and story directly. Whether it is in the form of a puzzle, an interaction that is required to gain information, participation in an event, or simply finding information on Google; their actions impact the world. Player Agency is what creates branches in the story. How they handle choices, whether or not they succeed in solving a puzzle, the result of a conversation, all these things have different possible outcomes and each outcome should be plotted in you storyboard decision tree.

Dynamic Pacing:
Endeavor to create pacing elements in your plot that are not time or event specific. Elements that you can reveal or withhold as need to speed up or slow down the pace of the game. Have non vital elements that support the sub plot on hand to maintain pace as well, this allows you to keep interest and engage players on a regular basis without losing the more casual player that is not as focused as the power-gamer.

Multiple Rabbit Holes:
Provide multiple points of entry to the game. Allow players to become involved based on their areas of interest. If you did your work with character creation and diverse sub plots, there will be many opportunities to hook players from all walks of life. Strive to gain a player base from the various circles of interest that your game covers. Rabbit Holes can be discovered or activated at any time throughout the story. A blog from a supporting character, highlighting their romantic failures, may draw in readers of that journal when the active player base finally discovers it midway through the game.

Available to New Players at any stage in the game:
Done properly, a game can be entered at any point by new players without significant barrier to entry. Consider the state of the story at each stage and how a new player would join, get up to speed, and play at that point. Your game world may be able to provide a method for documenting the progress so far so that new players do not need to find existing internet communities that address the Game in an out of game manner.

Multiple types of play:
There are as many different types of players as there are people on this planet. Some may seek interaction, some want puzzles, some a great story, some enjoy speculation and mystery solving and others may want to discover new elements of the world. A game should be playable in many different ways, sometimes bringing together divers groups of individuals towards a common goal and sometimes being pursued by individuals with no other support; consider these things when designing your game.

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:58 am

colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia

Quote:

The game should be designed in such a way that it can be played by various levels of expertise.

The game should choose its target audience; it doesn't have to cover all.

Quote:

A successful game should be aimed at both Male and Female audiences.

Really a choice again. Something like onlinecaroline* I think had a stronger appeal to women, I wouldn't say it failed because of that.

Quote:

Ideally, a game should tell layer storylines across different Genres and Themes,

Fair enough ideal, but really? Trying to use 8 types of story in the one game? I can understand using elements from each, but not all. I think the story should be a good story, and that's all

Quote:

Accept Responsibility:

Generally agree. I think if there was more responsibility for the product there would be less games collapsing. However, the story should tell its story and not bend to the players just because they like a character et cetera.

Quote:

Quality:

Agree, except where it conflict with the above points.

Quote:

Interaction:

That word deserves a dissertation all of its own. I'm not touching it.

Quote:

Player Agency:

I think it's worth saying that players can only make decisions you let them make. They don't have to control everything, in fact they don't have to control ANYthing.

Quote:

Dynamic Pacing:

Assuming your game is targeting a wide audience, this is a really good thing to try for.

Quote:

Multiple Rabbit Holes:

Nice idea.

Quote:

Available to New Players at any stage in the game:

again, nice idea. I don't think it will always be practical though.

Quote:

Multiple types of play:

Agree.

All round, well done. I think your target was to create a guide for marketers, who need to hit certain audience numbers. I think grassroots games should be really careful in using this document. They could very easily over stretch themselves.

* Not actually an ARG, but good enough for a comparison. Also consider 'chick flicks'

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:09 am

addlepated
Unfictologist

Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 1885
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Key Elements in a Successfull ARG

Well-spoken, Ethernull! You make some excellent points which PMs tend to learn from experience but might not think to express specifically.

First a quick point to Colin - he said that a grassroots team might be overstretched by trying to follow this guide. I disagree. The better grassroots campaigns have striven to provide the players with the same quality play as a professional game. Just because you're grassroots doesn't give you a license to slack.

Ok, I have some comments about some of the things Ethernull said:

Ethernull wrote:

Multi-Layered Level of Play:
The game should be designed in such a way that it can be played by various levels of expertise.
� Lurkers/Browsers that prefer to play by observation follow the story line and plot as it develops and participate in the occasional discussion, interaction or speculation.
� Novice Players that want to contribute but have little experience in puzzles, internet detective work and ARG interactions. These players enjoy contributing to discussions, interacting with characters, finding new clues, speculating and working on less complex puzzles.
� Experienced players that can work on more complex puzzles, conduct extensive internet research and detective work, take action on speculation and theory as well as interact "in game" with characters.
� Expert players, often referred to as "Hard Core" or "Power Gamers" that work individually or in teams, create documentation, advise other players, solve extremely complex puzzles and codes, interact with characters on a regular and ongoing basis and chain together long trails of clues and information.

WIth luck your game will bring in many people new to the genre, so expect more less-experienced people to be playing. The expert player is elusive and difficult to engage, so if you're counting on having him or her play your game, you need to design specifically to draw him in.

Quote:

Targeted Towards Both Genders:
A successful game should be aimed at both Male and Female audiences.
� Male audiences, in general, prefer Action, Adventure, Surprise, Tension and Intrigue.
� Female audiences, in general, prefer realistic characters, depth of personality, interaction, and a compelling story and plot.

While it's true that many women are more story-oriented and men are device-oriented, even if you're designing solely for men, you're going to lose them if you don't have at least the modicum of a well-rounded story. Don't sacrifice plot for interaction or puzzles. The story is the heartbeat of the game, and without a sound basis, all other activities in the game will be called into question.

Quote:

Multiple Sub-Stories across Genres:
Ideally, a game should tell layer storylines across different Genres and Themes, interlacing them with the main Plot. Horror, suspense, drama, mystery, romance, comedy, action and adventure can all be included in the same work, highlighting the primary Plot and Story Lines.

While I understand your point, I think that stories in general benefit from less categorization rather than more. For example, I love the Dark Tower series by Stephen King, but in trying to explain its genre (fantasy/western/sci-fi) I've potentially alienated three separate groups ("Oh, I don't like westerns. I'll pass.") than if I were to say, "It's not easily defined, but the story and characters are gripping." Everyone understands a good story, but trying to label it further sets preconceived notions and prejudices into play. Most all stories have elements of two or more genres anyway.

Quote:

Establish Boundaries:
Novice and Experienced players alike desire on some level to be able to observe a definite boundary between the game world and reality. Establishing this boundary early and in such a way that it is obvious even to Novice players will help prevent a feeling of betrayal at the discovery that it is, in fact, a game. It will also help prevent the inevitable cry of "HOAX!".

Very true. People get uncomfortable when the game invades their life space. A little bit of serious blur (an unexpected phone call or snail mail) is all that's needed to elicit strong reactions.

Quote:

Registration sites for the game should show some sample or degree of what lies inside. Players should have some way of holding the game accountable as a real entity, just as you are doing to them with their personal information.

Could also make use of an apparently in-game privacy policy which reassures signups that their information won't be used for marketing purposes.

Quote:

Accept Responsibility:
Accept responsibility for your actions, your characters, and the story. Players are committing time, effort, trust and sometimes money to your game. They are contributing to the Storytelling experience, they take action, solve puzzles, challenge and stimulate you. They bring friends, write blogs and wikis, wait up late for phone calls, instant messages, emails and website updates. Accept the responsibility that comes with the trust and participation as a Coach, Teacher or Project Leader would; take them to the finish. If you create a character that the players will empathize with, interact with and come to love, consider the impact of that character's actions and role in the storyline. What if that character dies? What if they betray the players? What impact will that have emotionally? Is it the impact that you want to have?

Couldn't have said it better myself. The players are demonstrating their trust by investing their time in your creation. Not only is this an honor but it's a sacred responsibility not to let them think their investment was poorly-spent.

Quote:

Quality:

Very well-put. It's imperative to have a clear sense of where you're going before you start your journey. Rambling your way towards the end, making up major plot points along the way, is going to annoy both you and your players. They will know.

Quote:

Interaction:
Interaction is a vital element in ARGs, without it, you have only a story. Strive to include as much interaction as possible without losing the balance needed for Multi-Layered Levels of Play. In each interaction, consider the character in first person, understand what they know, what they don't, how they react to the player, as a part of their reality, communicating with them on the current topic. Maintain the character without falter, and consider their place in your world. Interaction can happen on any level, in any form. Be creative.

Sometimes it helps if you assign a character to one person only of the PM team. That way the character's voice and underlying methods are consistent. Having several people play a major character creates a confused character and confused players.

Quote:

Dynamic Pacing:
Endeavor to create pacing elements in your plot that are not time or event specific. Elements that you can reveal or withhold as need to speed up or slow down the pace of the game. Have non vital elements that support the sub plot on hand to maintain pace as well, this allows you to keep interest and engage players on a regular basis without losing the more casual player that is not as focused as the power-gamer.

Very important concept, since things rarely go exactly as planned. Having a backlog of filler or reward material can help you cover all manner of emergencies. A puzzle trail works for this, too.

Quote:

Multiple types of play:
There are as many different types of players as there are people on this planet. Some may seek interaction, some want puzzles, some a great story, some enjoy speculation and mystery solving and others may want to discover new elements of the world. A game should be playable in many different ways, sometimes bringing together divers groups of individuals towards a common goal and sometimes being pursued by individuals with no other support; consider these things when designing your game.

Also keep on the lookout in daily life - you never can tell where inspiration will come from. A new piece of software was just released - could this be used in an ARG? Watch new technology and look at old tech with an eye on how to use it in a new or unexpected way. I keep an eye on several different tech news blogs and well as general news, interesting links, and "what's popular right now" blogs to glean ideas.

Thanks for posting this! It's a great design guideline for prospective PMs. Smile

_________________
Give a man a match, and he is warm for a night. Light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:21 pm

Ethernull
Boot

Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 47

Colin,

Great feedback, well thought and spoken. Thank you

I'm going to try to address some of your comments with further explanation. Many of the statements in the guide need more explanation for an external audience.

colin wrote:

Quote:

The game should be designed in such a way that it can be played by various levels of expertise.

The game should choose its target audience; it doesn't have to cover all.

I agree with you on a philosophical level. A game *could* consist of nothing more than a private message forum with character interactions and very basic puzzles only. THe private forums would prevent lurking to an extent, and the lack of complex puzzles and advanced deduction may keep more expert players from participating due to boredom. Personally, I wouldnt make such a game and would not be likely to participate actively in one because my expertise varies depending on the topic or task at hand.

Keep in mind that this section of the guide refers to skill levels and usage paterns, no necissarily marketing demographs. In any arena, be it gardening or console gaming, you have individuals with different levels of expertise and usage, that is what we are trying to address.

Regarding picking your target audience, I agree for the most part.I feel that a game should speak to its target audience and appeal to as many in that audience as possible, but that is personal prefference.

colin wrote:

Quote:

A successful game should be aimed at both Male and Female audiences.

Really a choice again. Something like onlinecaroline* I think had a stronger appeal to women, I wouldn't say it failed because of that.

Fair enough Wink

THe choice exists and there is definitely nothing wrong with designing under the "chick flick" vs "<richard> flick" concept. This statement in the guide is definitely meant for a "Blockbuster" concept. For all that Action/Adventure and Romantic Comedies all get their fair share of awards, it is the films and books that honestly and openly appeal to both genders that sweep through everything in their path, become a household name, and last in people minds for many years. Consider Schindler's List, Star Wars and others.

colin wrote:

Quote:

Ideally, a game should tell layer storylines across different Genres and Themes,

Fair enough ideal, but really? Trying to use 8 types of story in the one game? I can understand using elements from each, but not all. I think the story should be a good story, and that's all

You are absolutely correct. The intended meaning of that section is that element of multiple genres (not neccissarilly all of them) should be included for a well reounded story. Moments of intrugue, a little romance between characters, action, mystery etc; each in the appropriate spot, just like real life. Even action heroes get a little romany and comedy on occassion. Granted, you could do pure comedy, pure horror or pure whatever, but it will narrow your audience, which is something to consider.

colin wrote:

Quote:

Accept Responsibility:

We aren't meaning that you should change the story mid game (you could if you wanted to,) just suggesting that you consider it at design time. If you paint a story that seems like a romantic comedy and the main character dies at the end, you have betrayed your audience, in my opinion. That may very well be your goal though, which is okay. I would just feel deflated. I'm picturing "City of Angels" here...

colin wrote:

Quote:

Player Agency:

I think it's worth saying that players can only make decisions you let them make. They don't have to control everything, in fact they don't have to control ANYthing.

In my opinion, if players control nothing, it is not an ARG, it is story telling. I don't mean that to sound confrontational, it is not meant that way. A single puzzle, a single interaction (as opposed to a statement that merely drops a clue in IM regardless of the players conversation with the character) or a single internet search gives players control. What if the player doesnt understand it, what if their search on google yields nothing, what if they dont solve the puzzle? The story branches, or in some cases, dies completely.

Okay, I'm rethinking the above statement. You could have interaction, puzzles and such that have no impact whatsoever on the story, it's pace, or it's direction; but in my opinion that isn't "gaming", it is like story telling with a "follow along" activity. Again, just my opinion here.

colin wrote:

Quote:

Dynamic Pacing:

Assuming your game is targeting a wide audience, this is a really good thing to try for.

I think even for a small audience Dynamic Pacing can be used. Maybe not with the example quoted in the guide, but to some extent it can be incorporated. Even a [GAIM] with 5 players and one PM *shudder* could vary it's pacing based on the players progress, avoiding lulls but not going to fast.

colin wrote:

Quote:

Multiple Rabbit Holes:

Nice idea.

Quote:

Available to New Players at any stage in the game:

again, nice idea. I don't think it will always be practical though.

I think you are probably right, just one of those things to strive for.

colin wrote:

Quote:

Multiple types of play:

I think if grass roots games were to try to implement this guide to some degree, it would do them wonders.

Colin, again, very provocative and insightful comments, I welcome your further discussion.

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:21 pm

imbri
Entrenched

Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

Wow, excellent post Ethernull.

colin wrote:

All round, well done. I think your target was to create a guide for marketers, who need to hit certain audience numbers. I think grassroots games should be really careful in using this document. They could very easily over stretch themselves.

While I do agree that his post provides insights needed for a large general audience, I don't think that is reserved towards "marketers." In fact, I believe that marketers could sometimes be better rewarded with a more targeted audience. And, as for grassroots games needing to be careful following this, if they're going for a large general audience, they absolutely should look at the tips provided. The team behind Lockjaw & Metacortechs have a similar set of ideas that they follow and I think that it worked very well for them (us). And, while it seems as if it's a stretch to use a document such as this, I believe that it's better to be stretched than to be running around without any sort of direction.

(more thoughts on all of this later� but again, excellent posts)

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:24 pm

Ethernull
Boot

Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 47

Re: Key Elements in a Successfull ARG

Thanks for the feedback Addlepated, excellent points, all.

Especially:

addlepated wrote:

That is, I believe, the best explanation of "Genre vs. Story" I have ever read.

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:31 pm

colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia

@Ethernull : Thanks for the response. I Think I interpreted some of your points differently to how they were intended. addlepated said alot better what I was trying to say about the story/genre thing.

@everyone : My use of 'marketing' wasn't really exactly what I meant, but I'll roll with it now.

To expand on why grassroots should be carful when using this: I'm worried about smaller scale productions, games running in the "ARGs with Potential" section.

I'm going to create some new divisions* for PMs 'professional' 'pro-am' 'amateur'. Games like Lockjaw and Metacortechs fit in to the pro-am catagory. This level of game should worry about the things in the first post. It's the amateur catagory that should be worried about over stretching.

The amateur games just aren't big enough to support all these things. Trail heads are being posted directly to UF, stories aren't going to be multi-arc cross-genre materpieces. I'm puting having the game finish (i.e not implode) above having a great game. At the amateur level that is a much better goal.

*if some reporter can create 4 types of ARG, I can create 3 types of PMs Razz

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:54 pm

GuyP
Unfettered

Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK

Quote:

The amateur games just aren't big enough to support all these things. Trail heads are being posted directly to UF, stories aren't going to be multi-arc cross-genre materpieces. I'm puting having the game finish (i.e not implode) above having a great game. At the amateur level that is a much better goal.

But at the risk of sounding churlish, if you aren't trying to create a great game, why bother starting in the first place? Furthermore, if simply "having the game finish" is your primary goal, why should anyone bother playing it? I don't quite understand the distinctions you've made between "pro-am" and "amateur." If by "pro-am" you mean grassroots PMs with the dedication and talent to produce a professional game, then that's the standard I expect from all amateur teams. It does people like Karaeto a disservice to suggest they have some kind of untouchable "extraness", when they've worked with the exactly same constraints as other grassroots PMs and produced (frankly) superior results. Not only that, but it cuts your "real amateur" teams an unfavourable amount of slack, implying that they should only try and acheive mediocrity, as they don't have the magical secret sauce of the "pro-amateurs."

That's just crap. If you're an amateur PM, you're in exactly the same boat as the team behind Lockjaw, Metacortechs, Chasing The Wish, Urban Hunt, and so on, and so forth. If you don't have the guts to hold yourself to that kind of standard - if you really only aspire to the dizzy heights of being an 'ARG with Potential' - then how can you, or your players, be passionate about your game?

On the other hand, Colin, I agree that Ethernull's (excellent!) document seems fairly ambitious, and while I champion ambition as a vital ingredient in the development of an ARG, not all teams might feel capable of fulfilling all the points within. Fair play, I suppose. But ARGs don't need to be huge, wide-ranging epics - they can be tight, focused, claustrophobic. Look at "Who Is Benjamin Stove?" for example - it has three websites. Three! Does it look like it cost tens of thousands of dollars to produce? No! It's not about a huge government conspiracy, either, but a very simple question: "who painted this painting?"

It's the product of talent and effort, and thankfully my friends, these are available to you too. Be small if you must, but be excellent.

A couple more things towards Ethernull upon reviewing the thread again:

It's interesting that you propose fully mixing genres in your work. My first reaction was similar to Colin's, but on reflection ARGs are the perfect space in which to do so. Because the story is told from so many different perspectives, you can have humour, horror, romance and reallybigexplosions all within the same game. If you really pulled it off, I imagine the juxtaposition could be very effective in places.

On the other hand, I largely disagree with your points regarding interactivity etc. I don't think the story has to respond very much to the actions of players, and I believe that many successful games have been run, more or less, "on rails." I don't dispute that it can be rewarding for players to feel like they're influencing the game, but I think "understanding" - learning more about the story, by completing tasks - has a wider appeal. A jigsaw puzzle only makes one picture, but the satisfaction is from putting it together and seeing what it is. If people wanted to make their own pictures, they'd just buy some paints instead.

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:12 am

imbri
Entrenched

Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

GuyP wrote:

A jigsaw puzzle only makes one picture, but the satisfaction is from putting it together and seeing what it is. If people wanted to make their own pictures, they'd just buy some paints instead.

I am so going to steal this from you.

(oh and great post and other stuff. i've got lots i want to add into this topic but it's almost 5 am and I must sleep before the sun rises)

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:43 am

GuyP
Unfettered

Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK

We promise to keep the thread right here until your glorious return. Very Happy

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:18 am

colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia

At the risk of draging this thread off-topic I'm going to reply to a bit of this:

GuyP wrote:

But at the risk of sounding churlish, if you aren't trying to create a great game, why bother starting in the first place?

Because you have to start somewhere...

GuyP wrote:

Furthermore, if simply "having the game finish" is your primary goal, why should anyone bother playing it?

I personally wouldn't. but...

GuyP wrote:

I don't quite understand the distinctions you've made between "pro-am" and "amateur." If by "pro-am" you mean grassroots PMs with the dedication and talent to produce a professional game, then that's the standard I expect from all amateur teams.

I think this is the idealist view, I'm taking more of a realistic view. People need practice. Do you tell an 8 year old kid not to play soccer because he's not as good as a professional? He just plays in the under-8 league. If he's good he plays in the under-10 league as well. People need to have practice, and unfiction is the place your going to see it. This community is like the indie film scene that watches low budget movies. This isn't your multiplex cinema showing films with a multi million dollar budget. Sure you can have high expectations for every ARG you play, but who will support the new guy? who will give him feedback on how to improve? Everytime a game collapses it's just "you should have prepared better, flame, flame, flame" I'd rather get to the stage where it's like "this element of the game was strong but you needed to balance it with that element".

Also I think your words tell another part of the story "talent" not skill...

GuyP wrote:

It does people like Karaeto a disservice to suggest they have some kind of untouchable "extraness", when they've worked with the exactly same constraints as other grassroots PMs and produced (frankly) superior results.

I view the opposite, I'm putting Karaeto on a pedestal becaue they are so good. I don't want to lump them with the "PM" whose game collapsed after two weeks. Imbri is working in ARGs, Steve has been hired by 4orty2wo, and Dave Szulborski, who I'd also call pro-am worked on Art of The Heist. These guys are literally bridging between professional and amateur. They are getting these jobs based off the work they have done, the (albeit small) ARG industry recognises these guys as producing quality work. Why shouldn't we?

This community has avoided any type of classing, and that's largely been a good thing. ARGN introducing the "YMMV" tag for "indie" games caused a good deal of comment. I don't really expect these categories of PM to stick, but I've got to do something. The PMs that don't target UF as an audience, that don't have games that collapse, that don't post a trailhead to UF, that don't AIM someone, that actually do something to shape this genre of gaming as a positive thing deserve more credit.

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:54 am

GuyP
Unfettered

Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK

So you're essentially saying that "indie" has become so synonymous with "bad", and you don't want to damn the quality PMs with the same label?

I know how you feel, but my original argument still stands.

I don't agree that "having high expectations for every ARG you play" and "supporting the new guy" are mutually exclusive, either. It's just a harder kind of test - a lot more people flunk it, but the people that pass can really feel like they've kicked ass. That's just my personal perspective, however, and perhaps a more "understanding" approach may be required to nurture new PMs. Understanding, yes, but not indulgent, because if poor PMs have so blackened the name of "indie ARGs" that you're no longer willing to ascribe the title to "indie ARGs that are actually good", then something is way messed up.

Now imbri, please rescue this thread before I derail it completely.

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:35 am

GuyP
Unfettered

Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK

By the by, Ethernull:

Quote:

� Male audiences, in general, prefer Action, Adventure, Surprise, Tension and Intrigue.
� Female audiences, in general, prefer realistic characters, depth of personality, interaction, and a compelling story and plot.

One of the interesting things about Games That Are A Big Hit With The Ladies is that they tend to be an equally big hit with guys. They're just notable in the fact that their gender take-up is roughly 50/50, rather than massively skewed towards men. Your simplification hits it on the head, I think - speaking as a dude, I rather enjoy "realistic characters, depth of personality, interaction, and a compelling story." I don't think many men would reject that in favour of some "totally 2D, unbelievable characters, following a plot with no direction or momentum, thanks very much."

Or to put it another way: the things that women like, everyone likes. Which is kind of weird, and possibly proves their theory that they are right about pretty much everything, but that's left as a debate for the reader.

What's more important to notice is that the second lot of stuff is much, much easier to depict within an ARG. You can't simply break out the CGI special effects and awesome stunts to appease the primitive instincts of the Y-chromosomed, but you do have an incredible opportunity to build a deep, meaningful story with rich, multifaceted characterisation.

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:52 am

MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?

Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

Ethernull wrote:

colin wrote:

Quote:

Player Agency:

I think it's worth saying that players can only make decisions you let them make. They don't have to control everything, in fact they don't have to control ANYthing.

I think you may have missed the point Ethernull. You can make the players feel as if they are affecting the story when all they are doing is driving the story in the direction you already planned for it to go. It is very difficult to plan for every direction players may go, and if you alllow players to take the game in a directi9on you have not planned for your game will quickly get away from you and hurt the quality of your game. It is possible to limit player choices to just a couple directions that you control and may lead the players back into your main story rather than give them carte blanc to take the storyline off your intended path.

Trust me on this even if you think I am just full of hot air on everything else. As a PM you must remain in control of the flow of your game.

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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:06 am

rowan
Unfictologist

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1966

colin wrote:

We may watch low budget indie films, but we still watch them on the big screen at some art house or stuff that has actually made it to dvd or video. We're not going out and watching 8 year olds play soccer or getting all excited to see a film made by a first time filmmaker one afternoon in his backyard because he was bored. Can you imagine some random acquaintance telling you to come see this play or film and, deciding to take the time to actually go and see it, finding out it's actually Miss Miller's 3rd Grade Class performing Stone Soup? Would you be happy? Of course not. It would be a lot different if you were told "My kid is in a school play - wanna come?" but how many times are we told in the ARG world that this is just a practice run, a school play if you will? We're not.

Sure, this is a place for people to practice their craft, but I hope by the time they get here, they are at least at a varsity level. I'm not one of your close friends or a member of your extended family ready to be supportive no matter what you may throw at me. I'm a random stranger, expecting at least a modicrum of knowledge by the PMs in the games that I play. I'm not expecting absolute greatness, but I also don't want to watch people tripping over their own feet because they don't know how to run with the ball. I'm sure that there are a number of people here willing to play along with someone who has absolutely no idea what it is that they are doing, but only if they know that going in.

Is there any sort of place here for PMs just learning the ropes? Sure there is. We have all sorts of posts from past and present PMs telling of their experiences. They are the professional and college level soccer players telling the 8 year olds what they have to do to get better. But, in order to actually get any better, the 8 year olds do, at some point, have to listen to the tips that are being passed onto them. How many times has it been said "Don't PM alone" and how many first time PMs whose games have utterly imploded been single PMs? Quite a few.

I really don't think it's too much to expect that the PMs who present their games here either know what they are doing, or let people know that they don't when the game starts. If more PMs were open about what kind of level they were at, maybe we could get rid of the YMMV tag on ARGN and label games more appropriately. But right now, players are basically walking into a theatre not knowing if they are going to get a 3rd grade play or a college performance. And how is that fair to them? In my personal opinion, it's not.

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Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:47 am

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