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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » Low-Volume Games
[LOCKED] [RI][RELAUNCH] Renata Isle - The Game is Afoot
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kenji
Boot


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 43

 		Yeah every event that actually happens in this game is just an excuse for the PMs to have a delay of game - "intraweb problems," the delay of Rico's speech, etc. Anyway, I didn't even realize this (I don't check this email too often), but I got a reply to my email to the immersion notice board:
Quote:
Your message has been accepted. It will appear on the notice board
over the next few days. Thankyou.

Again, my message was something inane like, "Dias is hottt!-RHS boys," just to see if it worked. I sent out the email on Feb 24th and got the reply on Feb 28th, it's been almost two weeks since they replied and it's still not up. Ridiculous. I guess the PMs ran out of ideas after they were caught posting to unfiction.

The overall quality is just so...amateur. I can understand the grammatical errors and inane banter on Anissa's and Karin's sites...but are we really supposed to believe that Immersion is run by four bickering dimwitted teenagers with anime characters as their avatars? Give me a break.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:43 am
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ALISDAIRPARK
Unfictologist


Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 1646
Location: Everywhere else
kenji wrote:
The overall quality is just so...amateur


To defend this I think it's pretty good for quality, especially as I suspect it is just one person doing it all. My only gripe is the sudden lack of anything happening, which is understandable in the context of the PM probably having a life, but it is dull for us that are playing. It would be better if there was a way to notify us, without breaking UN rules, when he is going to be "away".

Here's a thought for those who are now slating this, where's your ARG? If you think you can do better, then why aren't you?

I know I couldn't do anything like this. I reckon I could come up with a good storyline, and maybe better characterisation, but I couldn't do all the site work, post real time in character, continue the storyline, monitor how the players are doing with the codes, work out how to give them hints when they can't get it etc. etc. etc.

I guess what I'm saying, short version, is that, yes it's boring just now, but opining and criticising are really boring to listen to. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:44 am
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kenji
Boot


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 43
Quote:
To defend this I think it's pretty good for quality

That ain't much of a defense. The fact of the matter is if it's just one person he/she SHOULDN'T take something like this on. It's too much work for just one person and anyone who has any experience in the ARG world (I mean, even just casually playing one) knows that. If you don't have more than one person on your team and you're not going to be able to fully commit to it, you shouldn't go to the trouble of getting people involved in the storyline and character plots, etc (like us).
Quote:
Here's a thought for those who are now slating this, where's your ARG? If you think you can do better, then why aren't you?

Again, I'm not doing better because it's just not a job for one person. Like you, I don't have the technical web site design skills/tools etc, but, like you, I could come up with a helluva better story than this. If you remember I think I actually asked you if you'd like to start working on an ARG, but neither of us had the technical expertise. The "technical quality" of this game might be pretty good, but the puzzles, characterizations, and plotline are not (evidenced by the fact that the plot does not move forward at all). The technical stuff is only half, or less than that, of the actual game and without the other stuff supporting it an ARG falls apart (again, case in point). I mean, "state of address"? Anyone fluent in English knows that makes no sense.

Again, if ANYONE (and I know there are boards on unfiction for this) with ANY kind of web design know-how would like to talk with me about plans for an ARG, let me know. The flaws in this one have actually made me think a lot about how one should work. But again, the most crucial element to an ARG is a good cohesive TEAM, not just one person working on his/her pc.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:16 pm
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GoodChild
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 616
Location: Solitary Confinement
ALISDAIRPARK wrote:
I guess what I'm saying, short version, is that, yes it's boring just now, but opining and criticising are really boring to listen to. Smile


All of my whining and criticizing comes from the belief that the PMs read what we post here. And they read the posts here so that they can adopt the game to fix perceived shortcomings.

I think the quality of the game is great, all of the websites look wonderful and the storyline seems quite complex. But the problem for me is…if everything else is so well thought out, why is the pace of the story just limping along?

I've never attempted to create one of these, I imagine they take a HUGE commitment to time. But if the PM(s) has that amount of time to develop the game, I don't understand why he doesn't have the time for running the game as well.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:32 pm
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audioslave
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 547
Location: Canada
kenji wrote:
The overall quality is just so...amateur. I can understand the grammatical errors and inane banter on Anissa's and Karin's sites...but are we really supposed to believe that Immersion is run by four bickering dimwitted teenagers with anime characters as their avatars? Give me a break.


...You obviously don't understand that because the quailty is so "amateur" is because (I'm willing to bet) the PMs are amateurs. This, to me, seems like a beginner ARG, and defintly not funded by anything but the wallets of the PMs. And you're all talking as if you built this game! This game is here to entertain you, nothing more. We really have no right to say "Hey, this game sucks, they have terrible ideas" because I'm sure there's somebody out there , playing this, going "wow! What a great story line" And no, I'm not crazy about it. But I'm not going to complain about how amateur these guys are, because it's obvious that they don't spend their entire days trying to make it better. They probably have jobs, and hell, maybe even families. I think that you were all expecting an ARG that is sombody's job (like ILB or Perplex City). You can't expect that for this game. When you start playing an indie ARG, you have to have no expectations, because they unreliable at best, and if you try to build it up to be amazing game that will blow your mind away, you will be sorely dissapointed.

So. My verdict? I'm pleased with the game overall (for an indie game) but if they don't try to give us something once and awhile, I won't be as happy with it. So give the PMs a break, will ya?

Trying hard not to get anybody peeved
Audio
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:04 pm
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kenji
Boot


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 43
Quote:
This, to me, seems like a beginner ARG, and defintly not funded by anything but the wallets of the PMs.

My criticism has NOTHING to do with money. I am talking about simple things like using spell check every once in a while, not having seemingly random spurts of uneven character interaction, and impossible puzzles which we've just got to figure out before the weekend or else. And then on top of that, the PMs have to pose as players to lead us through due to the complete lack of direction, and when they get caught the game stops cold. You don't need to be rich or an ARG veteran to fix these problems. These complaints have NOTHING to do with the technical quality of the websites (and it seems to me this is where the money comes in). I think it's probably that I care more about good gameplay and less about fancy visuals - I would be 100% cool with a game that took place entirely via email and AIM, as long as the story was good, the character interaction genuine, and the puzzles engaging.
Quote:
They probably have jobs, and hell, maybe even families.

Of course they do. Unexpected things come up, life gets in the way. It could happen to the most professional development team. The honest and professional way to deal with this, though, is not with these random, unexpected delays, PARTICULARLY after the PMs keep building stuff up so much. Intraweb problems! Rico's gone missing! Wasn't the highly anticipated windfall tournament yesterday? And not a word. It's very easy, if life gets too hectic, all you've got to do is put up a simple message, something along the lines of "I'M SORRY, THE INTRAWEB WILL BE DOWN FOR A FEW WEEKS (or until July, or until further notice, whatever)." This lets the players know that they can cool it and instead of checking in with the game every 20 minutes they know things will slow down for a while. You could even have the forum email people when it gets back up. Simple as pie, and everyone's happy.
Quote:
We really have no right to say "Hey, this game sucks, they have terrible ideas" because I'm sure there's somebody out there , playing this, going "wow! What a great story line"

Umm, I do have a right to offer legitimate criticisms of the game. And I'm not just calling people names, I'm trying to offer real constructive criticism. See hyexistenz's point about the PMs reading this. Maybe they'll get something helpful from our critiques. And also, I think you'll agree that someone else liking it doesn't oblige me to feel the same.
Quote:
My verdict? I'm pleased with the game overall (for an indie game) but if they don't try to give us something once and awhile, I won't be as happy with it. So give the PMs a break, will ya?

I'm glad you like it. Just remember that that's "your verdict," and one I disagree with. I gave my opinion, you're entitled to yours. We probably just look for different things in a game.
Quote:
This game is here to entertain you, nothing more.

Exactly. It's not, and it's fine for me to say that.
Quote:
Trying hard not to get anybody peeved

Who are you trying not to peeve? The PMs?

Trying hard to respond in a cogent manner to criticisms of my criticism,
kenji

PS-I was trying to liven things up a little with my post recent post the Renata community forums (the panama one) because things have gotten so dull around there. I'm gonna stick with the joke, so seriously people, feel free to ask me questions about the "outside world." It'll be interesting to see how the in-game characters react to my voyage. Maybe I'll head back and pick some other islanders up! Anyway, adios.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:06 pm
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audioslave
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 547
Location: Canada

 		Hm...I see that we're not going to agree on this.

I feel that the PMs did an overall good job (so far!) and yes, there are a few problems like spelling errors, but really, who cares? I'm not saying that everybody loves a good spelling error, but it really doesn't hinder the game play all that much (unless it's a really big spelling error, like spelling "mother" as "mghotherff" and as far as I know, that hasn't happened... yet. anissa, I'm watching you). But when the game slows down, or something goes wrong, people tend to nit pick, hell, I do it sometimes. And I respect that you don't like some things in this game, but I think that the game as gone fairly well (once again-"So far")

And I was trying not to peeve off any players, they can be vicious if you critize their logic sometimes...
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:51 pm
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kenji
Boot


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 43

 		Again, I'm not trying to make you agree about our differing conceptions of the game - you have one opinion and I have another, and that's fine, as I pointed out above. My problem is with you saying that I don't have a right to make those criticisms. Of course I do. Just like you have a right to say you like the game. Again, as I said above, we look for different things in a game, and that's 100% fine. I'm not trying to convince you to agree with me (as you seem to be doing), I'm just trying to say what I think.
Quote:
but it really doesn't hinder the game play all that much

Many of my gripes are about stuff that seriously hinders the gameplay - impossible puzzles that don't really seem to have any effect on character interaction etc, weeks with barely anything happening, ridiculous delays of much-anticipated events. And for me, simple stuff like spelling (again, all you have to do is use spellcheck) on Immersion sites is annoying. For me, suspension of disbelief is a big part of the game, and easy stuff like using spellcheck can add a whole lot to one's suspension of disbelief.
Quote:
But when the game slows down, or something goes wrong, people tend to nit pick, hell, I do it sometimes.

I don't think we're nit-picking about irrelevant stuff, we're talking about the slowing down, the things going wrong, etc, which I perceive to be game flaws.
Quote:
they can be vicious if you critize their logic sometimes...

I do not see how you have criticized my logic at all. Again, you seem to be trying to reconcile two differing opinions of the game - this is not my intention and I think it's futile to do so. My point is simply that I have the "right" to say whatever I please about the game, just the same as you. Obviously, someone coming on hear and being like, "THIS GAME SUCKS, THE PMs ARE ASSHOLES," is rude and unhelpful, and I've tried not to do that by offering thoughtful, sincere critiques.

-kenji

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:55 pm
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audioslave
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 547
Location: Canada

 		I never said that you didn't have the right to critize. I think critizing is essential. I have a problem with people just ragging on the game, with no solution for them. It's one thing to point out something's weaknesses, it's another to suggest a way to improve. I'm not saying that you were doing that, but I sense that we're all starting to slide into an area where we're all doing it.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:05 pm
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kenji
Boot


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 43
Quote:
I never said that you didn't have the right to critize.

Actually, you did:
Quote:
We really have no right to say "Hey, this game sucks..."

And, in response to this:
Quote:
I have a problem with people just ragging on the game, with no solution for them. It's one thing to point out something's weaknesses, it's another to suggest a way to improve.

SOLUTIONS:
-Use spellcheck
-Update relatively regularly and keep character interaction consistent, or if this is not possible, let us know that the game will be on hold for a while
-Give us puzzles that we can figure out, and if we're having trouble come up with creative ways to help us out (this has to do with giving us a sense of direction and momentum in the game)
-Don't pose as players to help us out
-Don't build up anticipation for in-game events and then delay them for weeks.
These seem pretty obvious to me. I mean, I don't really understand why you mind so much if someone is points out the game's weaknesses. I mean, sure constructive criticism is nice (and I tried to provide it), but if someone isn't enjoying the game I don't see why it's wrong for them to say so.
Quote:
I'm not saying that you were doing that, but I sense that we're all starting to slide into an area where we're all doing it.

We all are? Who, me and hyexistenz? I think we are both addressing serious flaws with the game and suggesting methods of correcting them. I don't really understand why you are so apologetic for the PMs - are you worried that they will feel bad if they read these boards?
-kenji

PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:18 pm
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audioslave
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Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 547
Location: Canada

 		Ok, this is not the time or place to discuss this, if you want to continue this rousing debate, feel free to PM me. But this is getting us nowhere, so if anybody feels like discussing how the game is running, feel free to make a thread. Leave this to the acctuall game.

And if you really wanna settle this, may I suggest a thunderdome?
(thank you hyexistenz, for that charming idea Cool )
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:50 pm
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kenji
Boot


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 43

 		Jeez, again, I don't feel like I have anything to resolve with you! The point of discussing our thoughts about the game on the thread is to 1) discuss our thoughts on the thread and 2) maybe the PMs will read and decide to throw us a bone (or an in-game event, or a puzzle, or some direction). One last time - you are enjoying the game, and you've said so, and that's fine. I am not, and I've said so and that's fine too. I'm not trying to convince you not to like it or win you over or anything, I'm just saying what I think.
Quote:
But this is getting us nowhere

Well, maybe it's not getting you anywhere, but I at least feel like I have addressed (in detail) all of your concerns about my initial criticism. Remember, this extended back-and-forth began because you took issue with my initial criticism.
Quote:
Leave this to the acctuall game.

I would but there's no actual game to discuss. If someone wants to make another "complaining" thread, that's cool. I think there was a similar one for FA (although those issues have now been resolved). Of course, the RI might pick up and be fun again and that'd be great, I'd be all for that, and then, of course, these criticisms would go away.

I really don't get why you are so defensive of the PMs. I'm not making personal attacks, I'm trying to make helpful criticisms. In my mind there is no real debate to continue - I feel like I've responded to every concern you had about my critique. And please continue to enjoy the game, I'm glad you are.

Sorry this has gone on so long everybody, I tend to get wordy etc, but I just don't like the implication that 1)I shouldn't be allowed to complain about the game's pace, and 2)my criticisms are mean-spirited and/or unfounded. Sorry to subject you all to my long-windedness. But HEY! I almost forgot I'M GOING TO PANAMA! The truth is I have mono and I'm home from school, bored out of my skull. Adios tudos.
-kenji

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:12 am
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Dano
Greenhorn

Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 6
Location: Vegas

 		Someone needs a HUG....

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:35 am
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PM
Guest


 		Kenji, your the same guy who emailed me begging me to let you rewrite my site because your a university student etc etc.

Now first off, spellchecker? The spelling is fine. And state of address is a word.

It is opining like yours that makes this less of a worthwhile project and takes the fun out of doing it.

To say i havent worked hard on this, i have worked extremely hard. And the storyline was in its beggining stages. The story is far more complex than anything i believe you can arrive at.

My problem, is as has been speculated, that i am one person. As far as being stupid for taking something like this on?

I didnt intend to. "The composer" was a basic, simple arg that was a lot of fun for me and for the people who played it, i hope.

However it gathered more attention than i thought i possibly could. Most probably because it was good eh? And it became bigger and bigger. I expected the same amount of people to start with renata isle. Instead i get about 40 or 50 emails a day.

Unfortunately the workload is too much for someone with a fulltime job who was doing this, mainly to give people like you a bit of entertainment.

And the constant whining and complaining that you can do better has kinda all but killed my enthusiasm.

I did my best, but i dont think i can possibly continue this at the level that is now expected.

It was supposed to be a grassroots ARG. I am not microsoft or mind candy, i do not have their resources or their staff. So i don't honestly think i can keep this going at the same level you would expect from them.

If you didn't like it, i really don't know why you stayed so long.

The long pauses have been due to things that, most likely due to my inexperience, required player interaction to solve before they can move forward. For instance, solving "the composers" code, would have led to an online chat at the weekend, with people assuming it was Jared they would speak to. Instead they would speak to Rico Cascade and hear his address and his intentions to attack the world.

Because the codes were never solved, even with help and additional codes dropped (ie the avatar), i didnt know how to get to that point, and was considering how when i read this, and now i have to say i don't know why i go to so much effort.

But i'm not going to post again. Thankyou to everyone who played and worked on this, but i dont think i can please people and this will just turn into a circus the longer it goes on.

I'm sorry, and thanks again.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:47 am
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JimK
Boot

Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 45
Location: State of Confusion

 		PM,

Thank you for the considered reply. I, for one, am sorry to see this go. I was really enjoying this ARG. I figured that we would need to crack the composer code to move on to the next step, and I really wish that I had had the ability to make the connections in order to do that.

As for the pauses, while frustrating, they are completely understandable (and your explanation was very helpful) and, frankly I have ended up being busier in my personal life than I had expected starting into this, so I'm kind of welcoming the idea of some pauses that I can just monitor what's going on and dig in when I have time available.

Ah well. Being the anal person that I am, I'm probably going to still keep trying to break that damn composer code. Ugh.. Smile

JimK

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:00 am
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