unforum

[rose]

The issue of imploding games

[jamesi]

Rose, you know I love you and the work that you do. You know I respect you and your opinion. I think you have presented your ideas in a well-thought-out manner here, and that your intentions are nothing but admirable.

My only (gut) reaction is to your statement about the resources we offer to help PMs support their game. I don't see UF as a place for Puppetmasters, but instead, as a place for players. Yes, we have a Puppetmaster Guide (in development) where we offer advice and relate information based on our opinions or PM experiences. But I don't necessarily consider this to be a PM resource as much as I find it to be a resource for the persons who want to become PMs.

Therefore, and I'm trying to keep this as short and to-the-point as I can, I do not feel that it is our responsibility to notify Puppetmasters or creative teams about the guidelines set forth here at UF. My reasons for this are twofold: (1) if the Puppetmasters already know about UnFiction, then they have the opportunity to research the forum, where they can glean a lot of information about the organizational structure, the posting guidelines, and the Puppetmaster Developmental precess; and (2) if the Puppetmasters do not know about UnFiction, then they may be confused (or disgruntled, which is one of the points I think was trying to be made in last night's IRC discussion) as to why a forum is giving them advice about a game that they have created.

I hope that this doesn't take the momentum out of what you are trying to accomplish here, but I do feel that this aspect of the conversation needs to be expressed. Workign together, I am sure that we will be able to addres the concerns that you have raised here.

[rowan]

Re: The issue of imploding games

[FLmutant]

Re: The issue of imploding games

[ScarpeGrosse]

I agree with Jamesi, that UF is a player-resource and not a PM-playground. I'd also like to add that I feel you're placing an unfair burden on your adminstrators.

I consider myself first and foremost a player. I can delete spam, see IPs and attempt to make sure that UF runs the way it always has, and that everyone (for the most part, and this does include me) enjoys the experience provided here as players.

But everytime I have to investigate an IP or a PM for forum abuse, I get angry and sad. Every time I do that, I have to destroy the curtain, for me, as a player. I can ignore this for the most part, because even though I'm looking, I tend to not contact unless absolutely necessary due to the guidelines of UF - this allows me for the most part to retain and respect the curtain, on both sides - me as a player, and the PMs on their side.

You're now asking me to stop respecting that curtain and to stop trying to retain it. You're asking me to make an effort to email every PM of every game and tell them that I know who they are and that we're watching their moves.

You're asking me to stop being a player and start being a hall monitor or net nanny for ARGs. I will not be the gatekeeper or the one with the Seal of Approval stamp for games. I am a player with the ability to clean up messes on these forums. I do not want the added responsibility of making sure that you can be confident that I've talked to each PM and made them aware: of you, of me, and of UF.

I appreciate the thought you've put into this and your concern for the Puppetmasters, but UF isn't for them. It's for the players - and I am one of them.

[Phaedra]

And again we come back to the idea that UF is a player resource and I don't feel it's our place to pre-approve games. Or be, as Scrappy eloquently puts it, anyone's nanny.

I've said it before; I'll say it again. There's only so much UF can do. The community can work to create PM guides. We can work to make resources for PMs accessible.

But we can't force help down people's throats. If PMs choose not to read the REALLY PROMINENTLY LINKED rules, and post pretending to be players or characters, then they deserve the consequences: being banned and/or having their game's thread locked. The rules are part of the terms of using the boards. If they don't like them, they are free to use/create other fora for their games.

The admins have enough to do without having to spoonfeed the rules and resources to PMs.

[MageSteff]

Rose, as always, your heart is in the right place.

My issues are much the same as Rowan's.

1. If a PM doesn't respect the Players or the forum enough to read the notice posted in large friendly letters at the top of the board - in addition to it being in the TOS and in addition to reading about us gripe about it nearly every day in the General and Meta forums as well as previously imploded games by others... Why would sending them an additional notice make any difference to that PM?

2. For the very new to our area, the Admins are usually polite with the request the first time it happens. The get pointed to the notice at the top of the forum, and reminded of the TOS. Only when a PM continues the behavior, or gets beligerent in responce does it get ugly. And in all honesty, it brings us back to point #1, why would a reminder make any difference to the behavior of that particular individual?


Unfortunately forums get trolls of every flavor, and being a PM does not mean that an individual is less likely to be a troll.

{{hugs}}

[Rogi Ocnorb]

You all have valid points, but for the most part it's all just another turn of the wheel.

The existing sign-up process does NOT include the PM posting rules.

***
EDIT: While I think many assume the following covers it:

[rowan]

Re: The issue of imploding games

[addlepated]

My $0.02, based on experience:

I'm one of the admins of a very large forum (94,000 active members). I have learned that if you give someone an inch, they will take 10 miles and cry for more. The only way to make sure that things remain on a sane and even keel is impartial, consistent application of the rules, with no emotion, personal commentary, or opinion from the mods and admins in dealing with the perpetrators (although the mods and admins are more than welcome in starting up their own threads discussing the factors they deem worthy).

It's not the responsibility of the staff here to make sure that everyone reads and follows the rules. That responsibility lies with the posters. If they don't follow the rules, then either their posts or their accounts should be locked. Eventually this will help with the issue of PMs posing as players, when they learn that this board means business as far as enforcement.

If a game implodes, I agree that the post(s) about it need to be locked immediately. Post-mortem discussion is almost always meta-related. Attacks should never be appropriate, but constructive criticism always welcome.

I do not feel this board needs more rules. The existing TOS and posted rules are more than enough to cover needed areas; they just need to be enforced.

[buff]

Imploding...

Touchy subject, it seems?

If we can assume that any PM tries as hard as they possibly can to make their game reach the end, enjoy the players as much as possible and make the actual game design as enjoyable and original as possible, then we can make some statements out of it.

1) Any game that is launched is deemed, right or wrong, by the PM/s as being ready for launch.

2) Not all PM/s are aware of the massive amount of work behind a game.

3) No PM/s design/create/launch a game with the goal of having it implode.

4) We, in the terms of players, are enjoying the game out of our own free will, in our own time and by our own choosing.

Now, these statements tells us something- namely that the only thing UF, as a community, can do do minimize the amount of damage and fallout from any imploded game, and to reduce the risk of it happening again, to everybody's malcontent - is to inform - somewhere, somehow, sometime - future PMs what's actually involved with making a game. Perhaps, one can argue that this is not UFs responsibility, but since it effects us quite a bit - and we invest time and feelings into it - perhaps we should make it our responsibility. This need not be some great Bible-Of-Making-Perfect-ARGs-And-Why-It's-Much-Work type of thing...

Just a few pointers in the right direction. We could even write it collaboratively in a thread, summing up the experience of the PMs around - throw it onto a website and slam the URL somewhere.

Anything else, IMHO, is adding too much work onto the shoulders of people who already have great responsibilites (and do a great job) - and is really not our place, nor our job.

So, my vote is for some place where the basic info about The-Dark-Side-Of-PM:ing can be found by anyone looking for it.

[Phaedra]

[Rogi Ocnorb]

And why, with ALL these resources, do we still have this problem.
*Rogi points up
They aren't interested in looking at your silly rules and guidelines. They've come up with a much better way of doing things and can't be distracted by all that "PM-Help" chaff.

[Phaedra]

[rose]

My basic premise is that what we are doing now isn't working. I don't think anyone can honestly suggest that it does work. I thought that people object to games imploding so that it might behoove us to try to limit that occurance.

I did say these were only suggestions and I did ask for others.

If the problem with my suggestion is that it adds more work to the existing people, surely we can find resources to deal with this. It doesn't have to be an additional burden on the staff that is already here.

If I was wrong about the substance, that is that we don't have resources or assistance to offer, then perhaps people could suggest revisions to what I said was a rough draft?

I would also like to note that without PMs, we don't have games and without games we don't have a community. I suggest we may want to consider welcoming them rather than pushing them away.

I appreciate Rowan's suggestions too. Does anyone else have ideas they would like to share? Or comments on her suggestions?