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Help with a new game: what's cool and what's not?
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Kitaro
Greenhorn

Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Somewhere over a rainbow

 		Help with a new game: what's cool and what's not?
Hey everyone,

I'm very new here and pretty new to the whole ARG universe, although I've been lurking for sometime. I've only recently started to investigate ARGs in detail and haven't been involved in any yet.. bad starting point!!
You're all going to scream "get involved with some games first, get your feet wet" at me, but here's the deal.. I want to start an ARG.
*pause for abuse*
That aside, basically I'd like to know from the whole ARGing community:
What's been done before?
What was cool?
What wasn't?
What do you wish a PM would do?
How often should an ARG be updated to to keep everyone enthralled?

In short, what makes ARGing great?!?
Don't worry, I'm not going to dive head first into being a PM, I am doing my reading, really thinking it through, planning and developing for a good long time and most of all.. I'm not doing this alone.
I have big ideas, but I need your help.

So, what do you say? Embarassed
I'd just love a great big brain storming session with all of you Very Happy

Kit

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:16 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

 		Re: Help with a new game: what's cool and what's not?
Kitaro wrote:

That aside, basically I'd like to know from the whole ARGing community:
What's been done before?
What was cool?
What wasn't?


That's pretty broad... are you looking for story ideas? for game ideas? for puzzle ideas?

Pretty much the standard conspiracy theory & character is missing bit has been done to death. SciFi blockbusters are more common than Romantic Comedies.

Quote:

What do you wish a PM would do?

Think things through a bit more. Think outside the box. Try new things. Break the mold but embrace what's worked.

Quote:

How often should an ARG be updated to to keep everyone enthralled?

In short, what makes ARGing great?!?

This depends on a ton of factors but mainly on the audience that you're going for. Are you looking for a huge massive audience or a small intimate one? Are you hoping to hit the mainstream or are you looking for the hard core types? Do you want an active chatty audience or one that's a bit more independent?

By asking those questions here, realize that you're getting your answers from a rather hardcore audience that prefers a certain type of game style. Keep in mind that there is so much more out there to consider.

Oh, and as for brainstorming... feel free to join in on the #pmchat chats. That's pretty much what they're there for. There's a specific topic for the first hour or so (until we pretty much get bored with it) and then the channel opens up for general discussion on any sort of topic. Players and PMs are welcome.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:53 pm
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

 		Re: Help with a new game: what's cool and what's not?
Kitaro wrote:
What do you wish a PM would do?
Write what you know. Write what you are good at writing. Don't conform to market demands or produce what you think is popular -- unless that is already what your creative muse is compelling you to work on.

Would an author do anything less when writing a book? Or rather, can't you tell when an artist is producing content under some contractual obligation, rather than letting it flow from the heart?

Of course, I am assuming that the reason you want to "start an ARG" (and hopefully finish it, too) is that you have the urge to create... something. You're going to need a more specific goal. Maybe you need to get in touch with what is motivating you. Is it the puzzles? If so, try creating a "timewaster" trail first. Is it the role-playing? If so, get involved behind the scenes and take on a character role for another ARG team.

Back to the question: What do you wish a PM would do? Understand their weaknesses and strengths -- and not just in terms of "good enough for fan fiction", but in comparison to all of the other entertainment choices an audience is exposed to. Don't be the William Hung of the ARG world.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:19 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

 		Re: Help with a new game: what's cool and what's not?
Kitaro wrote:
Hey everyone,

I'm very new here and pretty new to the whole ARG universe, although I've been lurking for sometime. I've only recently started to investigate ARGs in detail and haven't been involved in any yet.. bad starting point!!
You're all going to scream "get involved with some games first, get your feet wet" at me, but here's the deal.. I want to start an ARG.
*pause for abuse*


Consider yourself abused. Obviously you have read enough to know you really need to be involved in some way as more than a lurker. Wink
Quote:

What's been done before?


Lots of different things. Missing persons, conspiracies. Plain puzzle trails.


Quote:

What was cool?


Anything that showed the PMs were paying attention to the players and responding with at least semi personal answers.

Quote:

What wasn't?

(Personal opinion)
Anything that divided the community into sparate groups working against each other. Not everyone agrees that it is a bad thing, but given the individual can have various strengths and weaknesses, by dividing the player base you also cut into the problem solving ability of the base. Some people are good at talking to characters, and some are better at solving the hard puzzles. Splitting them up really can slow one or the other aspect down a lot.

Quote:

What do you wish a PM would do?


Plan out the story arc (or arcs if ti can go more than one direction) and be able to handle redirecting the players to get them back into the directions the PM wants the players to go. Be able to do same without it looking like you are forcing/browbeating the players to get them to do it.

Quote:

How often should an ARG be updated to to keep everyone enthralled?


at least once a week or more frequently. If you establish a longer time frame then as long as you are consistent. The longer between updates the more material you should be able to update at a shot.

Quote:

In short, what makes ARGing great?!?


Buwahahahah... Finishing. Not imploding. A good story, compelling characters, a variety of easy and hard puzzles. New ideas, or a new way to present old ideas. Not relying on cliche groups (templars, illuminati, etc.) from history to be the driving force behind your story.

Quote:

Don't worry, I'm not going to dive head first into being a PM, I am doing my reading, really thinking it through, planning and developing for a good long time and most of all.. I'm not doing this alone.
I have big ideas, but I need your help.


Good. because doing it alone usually means biting off more than you can chew.

Quote:

So, what do you say? Embarassed
I'd just love a great big brain storming session with all of you Very Happy

Kit


But really, if you have nbeen lurking, then you know what aspects make an arg look interesting to you. Stay away from cliche things unless you can use them in a new way (illuminati as the bad guys? Oh come on, you have more imagination than that!)
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Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:16 pm
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Kitaro
Greenhorn

Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Somewhere over a rainbow

 		A little more detail...
Thanks for the replies,

Imbri: I know it's broad.. and it's intentionally vague becuase if anything does go ahead then I don't want to ruin it for anyone that might play it.
I'm looking for everything, storys, puzzles, new ways of delivering the message.
As you say, it seems missing people has been a hot topic and hence done into the ground. So what would you want to see in a new game? Biomedical plot lines? Conspiracies between companies? Hidden meaning in art, old texts? Knights templar?

Think outside the box, that's something I'm really keen to do. When I approach a new subject I want to look at it, see what's been done before and do something totally new, hopefully with enough scope to change the face of the topic. I'm always looking to re-invent.

Basically, with this game, I want to push the boundries of player interaction. Move the focus onto real life events, actual actions in the real world having much more of a role in the progression of the game. I've seen a few puzzles which seem to be "find the hidden link on this page". Also, there's a lot of work being done with the internet and computers.. all very cool but is there a new angle moving more into pens and paper? Using the internet as a means of communication but not as the be all and end all of the game? Use more snail mail and dossiers to move the story on?

I want players to get involved, to have to meet each other, form communities, form networks. Work together and actually achieve real life goals.

Do you think there is a place for "educating" in the realm of ARGs? Will players respond to puzzles which really require some work, learning something new? Maybe even aquiring the basics of a new skill?
What about selecting key members from a player community? Almost assigning roles or ranks to players (I understand this was done in some respect with ILB.. making players into characters, but I'm more aiming at actually giving them roles in the player community which will not just affect the plot, but affect the organisation of the player base and the interactions between them)?

I'm aiming at a large audience with a lot of people who will be new to the ARG community, but I also want to draw in the hardcore gamers because I think you guys really present the best challenges to a PM and it'd be such a shame to make a game but water it down too much to appeal to newbies (like me! oh the irony!). I want this to be hard, but most of all, interactive and immersive.

Oh and imbri, I'd love to join in one of the PMchats, but have NO idea how!! Could you give me some pointers?

Catherwood: Good points, I think write what you know is increadibly sound advice. I'm hoping that the final scripts will actually be put together by someone a little more professional in the writing world than me! (I'm far more visual) I'm really going to be more of the energy and idea workhouse behind this project.
I want to achieve a healthy mix of plot and puzzle.. I think maybe with more emphasis on plot but with prominent elements of mystery rather than blatent stand alone puzzles.. everything should flow together and seem natural.

So.. any more ideas?
Have you ever thought, "it'd be so cool if they did that" or cringed at the crass plot lines someone's tried to pull?
I want this to be good, I'm starting early, but I need your help! Very Happy

EDIT: MageSteff, cheers for the reply.. comprehensive Smile That's a really good point about dividing the community, and something I may well have stepped right into. What's your thoughts on splitting the community up into nodes which work individually as a real life team but obviously can still work cohessively on the internet, with everyone still running in the same direction. That sounds a little backwards I know, but it's partly to do with an over-riding principle I want to tie into the game, and also because the emphasis on real life actions would work really well if we had put the actual players into geographical groups so they can work together on those events.
Would a very free-form story with a long term trajectory be really good? So player interaction changes the events as it progresses but eventually (and subtly) the whole plot moves in a general direction. I imagine that'd be really satisfying for the players, to see their impact on the world. I suppose that would require a full script outline and plot done well in advance and then constant re-writting as things went along, but hell it'd be fun!
If this ever lifts off, it really shouldn't implode. I'm sort of putting this together for a group of people who really won't let it go under.. you'l have to trust me on this one Wink
Steer away from cliches.. I really want to, but how real can you get before it becomes boring? Any ideas?

Kit

P.S. whoa, monster post! Sorry for re-writing War & Peace!!

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:31 pm
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Glecius
Decorated

Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 193
Location: The corner of HUH? and WTF?
Kitaro wrote:
Oh and imbri, I'd love to join in one of the PMchats, but have NO idea how!! Could you give me some pointers?


Check here for the dates and times of the PM chats. If you miss one or have missed any of the previous, there are normally log posts available after for people to d/l and recap, however I would recommend trying to attend. There is nothing quite like being in the thick of it at the moment its happening. Also be sure to read imbri's info within that thread, so you can forward questions on to her beforehand if you know you will miss a chat, then it can still be answered.

They are held in an IRC chatroom. If you dont have mIRC or arent familiar with it, you can also use the chat button on unfiction by highlighting it at the top of the forums, then type '/join #pmchat' to join in (without the ' ' of course). If you have mIRC, simply do a search for it on the forums, I know I have gone into a detailed description here before. It will give you all of the details step-by-step getting connected to the proper server and such.


Quote:
P.S. whoa, monster post! Sorry for re-writing War & Peace!!


If given the option, I'd prefer Pride and Prejudice next Wink
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President of the Phaedra Fan Club, she'll jack your thread

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:59 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

 		Re: A little more detail...
Kitaro wrote:

Biomedical plot lines?
Conspiracies between companies?
Hidden meaning in art, old texts?
Knights templar?


done, done, done, and done - heck, I think they might have all been done in the same game at one point, but those are all pretty much standard ARG fodder.

Kitaro wrote:

Basically, with this game, I want to push the boundries of player interaction.

Everyone wants to push the boundaries of player interaction. I've yet to understand what *anyone* means when they say that.

Kitaro wrote:

Move the focus onto real life events, actual actions in the real world having much more of a role in the progression of the game.

You might want to look into various other forms of pervasive play and locative media/art for things that have been attempted, what's had positive feedback, etc.


Kitaro wrote:
Do you think there is a place for "educating" in the realm of ARGs? Will players respond to puzzles which really require some work, learning something new? Maybe even aquiring the basics of a new skill?

I don't think that one can participate in an ARG without learning something new. And, based on the success of corporate training games, I'd have to say... "yes, there is a place for "educating" in the realm of ARGs." That said, not many take kindly to being preached to or having a message forced down their throats. People want to have fun, not go to school or church.


Kitaro wrote:

What about selecting key members from a player community? Almost assigning roles or ranks to players (I understand this was done in some respect with ILB.. making players into characters, but I'm more aiming at actually giving them roles in the player community which will not just affect the plot, but affect the organisation of the player base and the interactions between them)?

From my own experience, I think that the best and strongest player communities are those that grow organically and aren't created or forced. Also, players come and go as they have the time and ability to participate.

Kitaro wrote:

I'm aiming at a large audience with a lot of people who will be new to the ARG community, but I also want to draw in the hardcore gamers because I think you guys really present the best challenges to a PM and it'd be such a shame to make a game but water it down too much to appeal to newbies (like me! oh the irony!). I want this to be hard, but most of all, interactive and immersive.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but are you serious?! It is so much easier to design for the hardcore audience - heck, most of em will play anything if you say "here, puzzle" or "ooo, ARG" (sorry guys, but you know it's true) Sure, they're a cynical bunch and if the game, itself, doesn't seem to be put together well or presented in a certain fashion, they're tear it to shreds - and, fortunately, they'll have a blast doing that. But if you put a bit energy into it and make it look all pretty and have a few 'typical' arg elements - they're putty in your hands (again, sorry guys, but you know it's true). It's like putting a cop in front of a donut shop... what do you think he's gonna do? Walk away?

It is infinitely more difficult to attract and engage a large audience of people not already actively involved in the market.

Kitaro wrote:
Oh and imbri, I'd love to join in one of the PMchats, but have NO idea how!! Could you give me some pointers?

Sorry, I thought that I added the link in there. Though I also assumed it'd be easy to find seeing as it's the stickied post in the forum that you posted this. Anyway, to save you the hassle of hitting the back button, here's the link to the chat schedule. There's also information on how to connect to chat, though it can also be found in the IRC? Chat? Where and how do I do this? thread. Hope to see you there next week... the topic is Game & Story Design, which sounds like it's just what you're looking for and it'd be great to hear some of your thoughts as you've been actively researching those topics.

cheers Smile

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:38 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

 		Re: A little more detail...
Basically I'm seconding what Imbri said, but I also wanted to make a point about ILB...

Kitaro wrote:
So what would you want to see in a new game? Biomedical plot lines? Conspiracies between companies? Hidden meaning in art, old texts? Knights templar?


None of the above, really. Biomedical has been done several times, I think (Regenesis, LockJaw), conspiracies between everything under the sun have been done, hidden meaning in art and old texts -- well, ARGs are all about hidden meaning, and I'm Da Vinci Code-d out as far as pop culture in general. How are the Knights Templar any different, as a plot device, from the Masons, the Illuminati, or the Atlantean priesthood? (Yes, I know that historically speaking they're different, but as a plot device, how would they function differently?)

Maybe something that isn't trendy?

Of course, in the end, for me as a player, it's less about the subject matter than it is about the writing and whether the game is, y'know, fun.

Kitaro wrote:
Basically, with this game, I want to push the boundries of player interaction. Move the focus onto real life events, actual actions in the real world having much more of a role in the progression of the game. I've seen a few puzzles which seem to be "find the hidden link on this page". Also, there's a lot of work being done with the internet and computers.. all very cool but is there a new angle moving more into pens and paper? Using the internet as a means of communication but not as the be all and end all of the game? Use more snail mail and dossiers to move the story on?


Well, I guess the reason most ARGs center around the internet is because it's a fast, cheap, and worldwide platform. I can tell you from (non-ARG) experience that mailing things can get expensive in a hurry, especially if it's overseas.

Kitaro wrote:
Do you think there is a place for "educating" in the realm of ARGs? Will players respond to puzzles which really require some work, learning something new?


That will depend, I think, on whether you make it worth their while to do so.

Kitaro wrote:
What about selecting key members from a player community? Almost assigning roles or ranks to players (I understand this was done in some respect with ILB.. making players into characters, but I'm more aiming at actually giving them roles in the player community which will not just affect the plot, but affect the organisation of the player base and the interactions between them)?


Ah, actually the ranks in ILB didn't matter one whit. You just had to pick a rank to convince a character that you'd been part of her ship's crew. But players who picked higher ranks weren't granted more responsibility or anything. It was all arbitrary.

That said, I've never played or watched a game in which the PMs tried to force community roles upon players where it seemed to work out well. Some players will gain leadership roles because of their own intelligence or charisma. Some players will have the ability to do so but won't want the role. Some will try to take a leadership role and the community will have a different opinion on it. But when it works, it usually happens on its own, or because the PMs noticed something happening naturally and encouraged it.

If you try to force it, I really don't think you'll get the results you're looking for.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:45 pm
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Kitaro
Greenhorn

Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Somewhere over a rainbow

 		Hey hey,

This has got to be quick.. (EDIT: so much for that!)

Thanks all for the info on the chats, feel like a bit of an idiot as I could have figured it out myself, but I'm kindda pressurised for time at the moment. So thanks for that Smile

I can't stop to write personal replies to everyone but I'm gonna leave this as a little spark hopefully to get some more stuff flowing!

I'm gonna have to go against all my instincts to check this thread 24/7 as I have university exams next week.. and a recent obsession with ARGing has destroyed half of my revision time!! Confused

I'll try to lay out exactly what I'm after as I really need help from this community, I hope that if this ARG ever makes it past the idea phase you'll all still play it, but I need your help in shaping something that could (maybe, oh god I hope so!) be good.

I'm a medical student at Oxford University, I recently got the Marketing Officer position with the student society "Oxford Entrepreneurs". I love art, and designing things and I have a dreadful habit of getting overly excited about pretty much everything. I do however try and do everything that I start really well.
So.. I hit upon the idea of using an ARG as a marketing vehicle (that hasn't been done before! Wink ) but with a very different spin. The society wants to spread student Entrepreneurialism to other universities in England, Wales and Scotland, they're also very interested in nurturing student prospects for high school students as well. Along side this, the president is launching a system of "Enternships" (kinda like an internship.. except you want to be an entrepreneur!), he's got a lot of backing - including government support I think - and he asked for my help in setting up a website (God knows why as I've never developed websites in my life!!!) which will network people for these Enternships, and in launching the project.

My plan is to (bear in mind, I don't usually have small ideas Confused) develop a piece of software, tentatively called Nexus, which will act as a "picture frame" through which you will view the connections and networking of these Enternships, depicted as a galaxy. Essentially if you imagine most websites as a book with several pages, I'm imagining this website as a great big 3D box filled with little points of information which you can navigate in 3D. It does have some benefits over and above looking cool, but they take a bit of explaining (not really a good start is it Wink ).
So here's where the ARG comes in.. the idea (and it's a very free form amorphous blob of an idea) is to use an ARG to get students, anyone ages 15-25 roughly, excitied and involved in entrepreneurialism. Through the story they will be encouraged to form Entrepreneur societies at universities, learn about the structures of businesses, be encouraged to start their own companies and given help and education in order to do so. All for free, and for fun. They will also be presented with Nexus as a tool with which they can secure work placements with major companies which some students may not have even considered approaching.

I think the whole project is really exciting and actually beneficial. For my own sake as a marketing mogul (or whatever you might call them) I think it would be great to use an ARG before they become too old hat, and I think that a well spun story could really engage and motivate the target group. Also.. has an ARG yet been used to achieve a socially beneficial goal? If not, it'd be great to achieve a first and to push this fantastic media more into the public eye!!

So, what do you think? Has it got potential? Would I be manipulating hundreds of people and should I be shot for even considering it? What are the glaring holes? Is it too ambitious? What story would you tie in? ANY ideas on how you'd go about this?
I hope you can give me some feedback.. but for now, I've gotta revise!!! With my best friend Coffee

Cheers,

P.S. And that Glecius, just for you, is my re-working of Pride and Prejudice!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:14 pm
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GuyP
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Joined: 15 Sep 2004
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 		I think the Oxford Uni thing roughly trebled my confidence in your efforts Smile

Anyway:

Quote:
Would I be manipulating hundreds of people?


I certainly would advise against anything that's directly manipulative. While This Is Not A Game, you want to make it fairly clear that This Actually Is A Game, while maintaining the integrity of the work.

If you have educational goals for your game, there's a bunch of stuff you could do. A fairly obvious idea is to have your protagonists be founders of a start-up, because a) you could make their enthusiasm contagious and b) you could feature lots of the technical/financial aspects of startupitude as part of the game, perhaps even as clues? Now all you need is to have them develop "a cutting-edge new form of AI-driven search" in a bid to usurp Google... only for their searchbots to become conscious, hack into things in their quest to spider as much information as possible, and generally go a bit nuts. Or for amusement value, their software could become so smart that they start basing all their business decisions on what it advises them to do... or the software starts financially trading based on it's incredibly accurate interpretation of data, making millions and then buying out the company itself. Smile

(OK, seriously though, AI... ick.)

But yes, I still reckon that featuring young entrepeneurs gives you a great way to inform and excite your audience about starting their own businesses, and putting them in the right sort of field gives you plenty of opportunity to write a cool story about them.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:49 pm
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Lucy
Decorated


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 163

 		Considering the fact that there are very few absolutes in entreprenuerialism, how much can you really teach? If all you're trying to do is get people to click a bunch of links is this really the best way? If that's not what you're trying to do, then you must consider how using a single example (plot-line) might minimise the range of diversity that is not only possible but likely in the free-market. To me this sounds like the sort of thing that might be viable as an educative tool for high-schoolers, but I'd expect that any attempt to teach advanced principles to tertiary students would require a HUGE commitment to specialised and individual responsiveness.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:01 pm
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