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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
On Defining ARGs
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imbriModerator
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 		On Defining ARGs
note: split from the Short definition of ARG thread. Also split was Linear? Non-linear? Multi-linear?



colin wrote:
pretty much sums up the current 'problem'. It's doesn't have to be anything (it would wreck creativity) but it has to be everything (otherwise it's not an ARG)


I've had a meta post about this brewing in the far reaches of my brain (really, for as small as my brain is, there seems to be lightyears of nothingness between decent ideas making them very difficult to actually come together). But, honestly, just because some don't like or want absolutes does not mean that it has to be everything.

I know that this may sound absurd coming from me as I tend to like to play with putting things in boxes and defining terms, but I don't think that we need to define the genre as a whole while doing so. Just looking through this thread, we can see that we're all pretty much in agreement of a short definition. I say that only because about 10 people replied with, essentially, the same sentence. Do we really need to take it further? Do we really need a long list of characteristics that need to be met fully before we can say, "yep, this is an ARG."

Boxes and definitions are important, they give us a shared vocabulary so that we can have a conversation and understand what each other is saying. TINAG, for example - there's several different definitions of that floating around - is it a player mantra? is it a design philosophy? is it a characteristic of a game? Hell if I know when I'm talking to people. For me, it's a design philosophy yet most of the time that I see it thrown around it's being used as anything but that. That causes confusion and halts conversation as misunderstandings are dealt with.

Look at Catherwood's project. To me, it's a beautiful thing. It's not attempting to define the genre as a whole, it's looking at characteristics that are present in games that we play and, eventaully, the games will be put on some sort of scaleable graph thing. The game doesn't have to contain X number of interactions between players and characters before it is classified as an ARG, it doesn't have to have Y number of websites or Z% community activity. They are just aspects.

The further we define and the more absolute that we become, the less difference we're going to see between games. It will breed less creative works, I don't see how anyone can argue that. But, definitions can exist without absolutes, they can exist in ranges. They can be both anything and everything.

For example, consider Picasso's Les Demoiselles d'Avignon. While it is considered to be one of the first Cubist paintings (coincidentally, the term Cubism hadn't been born yet and still he managed to paint in that genre), you can really see a number of styles present, all bleeding and playing with one another. Picasso painted it, some say, to completely play with those styles as he transitioned into his Cubist period. Yet, remarkably, he was able to include all of those styles without having to incorporate a specific brushstroke, medium, subject matter, hue, etc for each one. The reason, because while there are trends and there are patterns for genres or movements, there are no absolutes in art. It's more about the overall picture than it is about the individual elements*.

A common vocabulary is good, scales are good, discussion is also good. Absolutes... they aren't so good and they're not at all necessary. So, let's be careful before going there.

And now I return you to your regularly scheduled topic. In this case, "A short definition of ARG".


*Well, until you get into modern art and you see some painting that is nothing but a blue line cutting a white canvas in half - then it is about the elements. However, it's not as if it's a piece in the "Lines" subgenre of modern art where artists are hanging out arguing over whether pieces can exist in their little movement because the lines might be broken or might be multicultured or, heaven forbid, might have 12 lines... we all know that the best Lines have fewer than 3, really, 1 is ideal.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:06 pm
Last edited by imbriModerator on Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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snamo
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 		I'd like to inject here just a bit of my own experience. I work in an industry where "creative" rules (not unlike the gaming industry I assume). There is alot of good thinking in these threads (meta forums) but the one bane I've seen to great thinking is overthinking.

Great, or original thinking, comes from both the heart and the mind. Overthinking or "meta" talking can obscure and block the heart.

I think the feeling that "boxing in the definition of an ARG might be bad" is the heart clumsily telling us that we're putting too much mind to this.

If you want to create charts, or create an explanation of what an ARG is, that's great. But realize that you are then really just a player on the meta level. You're trying to figure out the puzzle that is an ARG and you're discussing it. I mean no disrespect, only the observation that ultimately -- puppet masters create, and players try to explain the creation.

Please never intend any of this talk to help future puppetmasters, because all you will encourage is stagnation. I absolutely do not mean that anyone of you do this, I'm just going to bring this point up now and hope for the best.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:58 am
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colin
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 		The short definition thread has turned into a short rant thread Foily!
[edit]somehow posted to the wrong thread :shrug: please ignore

PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:50 am
Last edited by colin on Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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European Chris
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Quote:
I work in an industry where "creative" rules


Do you work in the warm arts?

snamo wrote:
Great, or original thinking, comes from both the heart and the mind. Overthinking or "meta" talking can obscure and block the heart.
.


What bollocks.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:50 am
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colin
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European Chris wrote:
Quote:
I work in an industry where "creative" rules


Do you work in the warm arts?

snamo wrote:
Great, or original thinking, comes from both the heart and the mind. Overthinking or "meta" talking can obscure and block the heart.
.


What bollocks.


hey man, you need to chill out and find your inner dolphin

peace, dude

PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:49 am
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rose
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 		I liked the idea of this thread because each of us has struggled to explain in a simple and quick way what ARGs are. I know at one point Jane McGonigal was considering this very topic for the talk she gave at ARGFest last year. I think we came up with a number of useful alternatives and they all got to the same core concepts -which is somewhat surprising. Go us.
---
As for:
Quote:
I mean no disrespect, only the observation that ultimately -- puppet masters create, and players try to explain the creation


I digress only to disagree with the idea that players simply explain the creation of a game. The most necessary, unique, fundamental, and, to me, precious aspect of an ARG is that players don't passively watch the game unfold. The players drive the story forward, create content, and affect the story or even the outcome of the game as they play. The players are essential to the organic creation and development of the game as it moves forward.

Some examples I will never forget: Krystyn singing to Melissa to prove she was human; bagsbee singing to Melissa outside the Staten Island ferry terminal as it was packed with commuters and construction workers; Shad0 finding Corazon's memorial for Victor; teh Lisa searching for a package after dark in an empty park; Lou's role in Heist. There are many, many others.

And, sorry, one more digression. As for:
Quote:
Overthinking or "meta" talking can obscure and block the heart.


While this is certainly something that "can" happen, my opinion is that we have a great deal of both thinking and feeling on this board. In ARGs "girls can be smart and guys can have feelings." Not that they can't elsewhere as well, it just means that both thinking and feeling are essential ingredients to games and, I think, we value both.

I recall Elan Lee or Sean Stewart said that they measured the effectiveness of ilovebees by the number of posts from grown men crying. But maybe they are just mean. Razz

Back to the topic -

My opinion is that the word "non-linear" is appropriate, but if you don't agree, then take it out.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:29 am
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MageSteff
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rose wrote:

I recall Elan Lee or Sean Stewart said that they measured the effectiveness of ilovebees by the number of posts from grown men crying. But maybe they are just mean. Razz


Heh... I measured how successful we were with Orbital Colony by the amount of swearing (player reaction of shock) for little twists in the story line, that even if the players had spculated previously, still exceeded what they expected to happen.

For me, I guess part of the ARG experience is growing to care about what happens to the characters, you don't do that with a video game, because the charactrers in video games are two dimentional. They can't tell you how they are feeling, they can't answer your questions beyond scripted canned questions and answers. In movies, while you may care about the characters and become invested in the story, you can't actively tell them to be careful going around that next corner because the bad guys have set a trap.

Even if the ARG is "scripted" to allow for the protagonist to not know the "bad guys" are there and also if the players inform the protagonist that the bad guys are planning. It is the feeling of direct input into the unfolding story.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:25 pm
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catherwood
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 		I just noticed this blog entry/article at http://www.watercoolergames.org/archives/000549.shtml -- allow me to excerpt about ARGs:
Quote:
...we could question whether or not there really is gameplay in many of these "games." There are usually puzzles, and typically puzzles to reassemble a narrative, usually there is not procedural representation. Last Call Poker had gameplay, in the form of the graveyard games, but that was an exception. ... (who knows what an ARG is?) ... the now-standard ARG genre-markers: "It's like a giant, worldwide mysterious jigsaw puzzle that will come to life for all the world to solve." ... ARGs are branded games. They are essentially licensed properties, where the licensor and the licensee are the same agent. Even though there is a growing community of so-called grassroots ARGs, the general public only hears about the big-budget ones, which are usually the branded/sposored ones. So, for better or worse, the genre has currently defined itself as advertising first.

Still afraid to pin down what the definition of ARG is? How about the definition of "gameplay"? What about the definition of "defined"?

What an ARG is to the players means nothing, apparently, to the outside world.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:51 am
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rose-nli
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 		wikipedia
I noticed from reading the article that Cath quoted that the ARG wikipedia page has been tagged for a sorely needed clean-up.

Funny - someone managed to add a link to eon8 for no reason that I could tell, but random links to sites of potentail games isn't a great plan for advancing the reputation and standing of ARGs.

I don't know who here checks that page, but we should look at it. The talk page notes that someone was going to notifiy unfiction about it, so our name is associated with that page already.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:00 am
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rose
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 		Speaking of definitions: this page from unleash explains that it has "ARGish elements", but is not an ARG because only registered players can access the materials or advance the story. And players can only be invited by current players.

Hmm - is this another aspect of definition of ARGs? Do we only consider games that are open to the general public to register and play ARGs?
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:16 pm
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imbriModerator
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rose wrote:
Hmm - is this another aspect of definition of ARGs? Do we only consider games that are open to the general public to register and play ARGs?


This hits me a bit 'personally' and, as such, this post may become a bit defensive.

I have had people tell me that my experience with corporate training games, while good should not be considered as experience in designing ARGs. Of course, I usually just nod and point out some of the similarities when I really want to smack em upside the head - especially when it comes from people that created an ARG for the existing UF community and, typically, have fewer players participating in their experience than I do.

"But, Brooke, your games aren't massively multiplayer! You're only designing for a single company." Honestly, what the heck is massively multiplayer that means that a game needs to be open and/or designed for all. Is it a numbers thing? If so, then games designed for unfiction players do not qualify. How is a game that attracts 10-20 active players at unfiction more massively multiplayer than a game that attracts 40-50 active players at companyX? Is it the potential of reaching some unlimited number? No, I deal with limits and, honestly, a captive playerbase. But the numbers are pretty large and the communication and teamwork that takes place is highly similar to what occurs in other ARG experiences.

"But, Brooke, your games aren't open. The world must be small and tightly controlled." No, none of the worlds that I've designed have been as controlled as, for example, LCP. They've all contained a variety of websites (sometimes as few as three and sometimes as many as eight) and they've bled into real world spaces and had communication come in through email and phone and fax and even 'mistakenly delivered' fedex and ups packages. Just because a world isn't available for everyone to see does not, in any way, mean that it doesn't maintain a highly public illusion. It just happens to be a one way world - where random non-players cannot randomly discover it. For those playing, it's played just as any other ARG and, if we've done our jobs correctly, it feels just as vast as the worlds in any other ARG. Just because I Love Bees was played in a controlled universe, did the players feel as if the world it created was small?

"But, Brooke, your games only last a week or two. There's no way that you can fully immerse someone in a rich narrative world in such a short time." And, yes, I agree with this to a point. Ideally, I think 8 weeks is good for a 'short' public game. It allows for a good solid introduction while bringing players in, then a good month to explore the world and discover and put together the story and then enough time too prepare the players for endgame and a solid conclusion. Much shorter than that and things tend to feel rushed and tight. However, we don't have that luxury and we've made do. One benefit is that all of our players are there from the get go - we don't need to work to attract the audience. So instead of a two week ramp up, we provide a "rumor period" that lasts for a day or two - it provides for that initial discovery or secret that people really seem to enjoy. From there, it's hard and fast into the world. I don't know that people are fully immersed, but that isn't our goal (and the people hiring us would not be pleased if people were so immersed that they didn't actually, you know, work). But the emotional reactions that some of the plot twists and characters bring out in the players tell me that they've connected pretty strongly to the narrative.

The biggest difference between 'private' or 'closed' games to the general public experience is the change in the range of players. I don't mean the classic "achievers, explorers, socializers, and killers", but I'm talking about a range from the hard core active player that checks in on the game for several hours every day to the person that clicks through once from some link that they saw elsewhere. In the more general public experiences, there are far fewer players in the middle. In fact, it looks more like a pyramid with the vast majority of players being lurkers and those that just click through once or twice. Every private game that I've done has one or two players that I would classify as a typical highly active player and three or four players that would be considered lurkers. The other 30 or so are bunched up in the middle. So, it looks like a traditional bell curve. I don't know if others that deal with private games see the same thing or if mine have other considerations because they're short runs and, well, for work. I mean if you're being monitored on your game play, you're gonna play but not play too much.

Having worked with games designed for a broad public audience (WiBS), a specific but large public audience (Metacortechs, ReGenesis), a specific and small public audience (Lockjaw*), and private games, I honestly believe that, while there are design considerations that seperate each of those types, the considerations that are made do not take away the fact that they are all Alternate Reality Games- open or closed, large or small, broad or specific.

Is it something to consider? Perhaps. Though I think that the public or private scale is secondary to most other things that have been considered.

* arguably, we didn't knowingly or intentionally design it just for a specific and small audience, it just happened that way. We were going off of instinct with that one and our instincts led us to CM Smile

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 6:01 pm
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konamouse
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 		Target audience does not define an ARG.
Corporate gameplay as a team building exercise can most certainly be an ARG (isn't that Virtuquest's bread & butter??).
Grassroots games can be an ARG.
Advertising campaigns can be an ARG.

"Alternate" - i.e. not real life, but a facsimile.
"Reality" - i.e. the characters think their lives and troubles are REAL, even if we know it is not.
"Game" - i.e. we are playing a game that may include puzzles, websites, real world interactions (phone calls, faxes, packages, treasure hunts, etc), storyline, characters, and a mission (reason for us to be involved).
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:04 pm
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snamo
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snamo wrote:
I'd like to inject here just a bit of my own experience. I work in an industry where "creative" rules (not unlike the gaming industry I assume). There is alot of good thinking in these threads (meta forums) but the one bane I've seen to great thinking is overthinking.


Ok, judging by the time of your post - it's probably time to dump out that whiskey and enjoy the boring, yet readily available hotel room bed. Who the hell let you log onto their wireless network anyway. Tired of fighting for ideas eh? Join the "club".

snamo wrote:

Great, or original thinking, comes from both the heart and the mind. Overthinking or "meta" talking can obscure and block the heart.
I think the feeling that "boxing in the definition of an ARG might be bad" is the heart clumsily telling us that we're putting too much mind to this.


Great thinking comes from the genitals and penguins, not from whiskey. Unless you're Hemingway, I suppose. Turn around..do you see a Tree in your hotel room? No? Dry hump the cheap dresser ..the one without the bible in it.

snamo wrote:

If you want to create charts, or create an explanation of what an ARG is, that's great. But realize that you are then really just a player on the meta level. You're trying to figure out the puzzle that is an ARG and you're discussing it. I mean no disrespect, only the observation that ultimately -- puppet masters create, and players try to explain the creation.


The only puzzle i'm trying to figure out, is what the hell you're talking about. I guess, I could liken all that to the old critic vs. maker discussion, or maybe you're too meta for meta. Rolling Eyes

snamo wrote:

Please never intend any of this talk to help future puppetmasters, because all you will encourage is stagnation.


Well, shit dawg, let's remove all writing classes, and degrees from our colleges.

Snam, just let people get back to the regularly scheduled (and interesting) discussion please. Thanks.

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:32 am
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Ethernull
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 		Snamo, did you just flame yourself or am I missing something here?

PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:11 am
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addlepated
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snamo wrote:
snamo wrote:
...
Well, shit dawg, let's remove all writing classes, and degrees from our colleges.

Snam, just let people get back to the regularly scheduled (and interesting) discussion please. Thanks.


Snamo's gone flaming bike on himself! Flaming Nutter
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:11 am
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