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 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC: Silver Puzzle Cards
[PUZZLE] #251 - Silver - The Thirteenth Labour - READ POST#1
Moderators: AnthraX101, bagsbee, BrianEnigma, cassandra, Giskard, lhall, Mikeyj, myf, poozle, RobMagus, xnbomb
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QBKooky
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 281

Flynn wrote:
I always thought there would be lots of false positives to sift through. I am extremely happy if this is wrong, but I'd appreciate if someone could explain why this would be the case.
If I understand your question, you're asking why there would've been more false positives.

I can't speak for other people's thoughts, but I presume that they figured - out of hundreds and hundreds of millions (I guess that would be billions?) of tested decipherings, -some- of them might be all ASCII but not be the right answer.

However, as was expained above, mathematically this is incredibly unlikely, seeing as the chance of any one character (out of 160) being printable ASCII is approximately one-half, and probability dictates that the chance of 160 of these (sort of) random characters being printable ASCII is very very very very small (one half to the power of 160 = 6.84x10) -51 percent - that's a percent with fifty zeroes after the dot, to give you an idea).

Does this answer your question? If not, I'm sorry, I'm sure somebody else can take a crack at it. Smile[/sup]
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:22 am
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arnezami
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Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 136

Flynn wrote:
An aside - I always thought there would be lots of false positives to sift through. I am extremely happy if this is wrong, but I'd appreciate if someone could explain why this would be the case. Cheers Smile

I think chimera245 explained it very well already (see a few posts above).

The basic idea is this: this cipher uses a 64 bit key. This means there are roughly 18 billion billion possible keys. Each key generates a unqiue message. So it may seem like we can generate a lot of (if not all) possible messages (which is why one might think it would generate false positives). But the message to decrypt is MUCH larger than 64 bits (roughly 1280 bit). So there are in fact about 1 billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion possible mesages!

This means that even if we were to try every single possible 64-bit key (and lets assume each key resulting in a unique message) we would only generate a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the total amount of possible messages. And since we are searching for a very specific type of message (as chimera245 pointed out: only 1 in 1000 billion billion billion billion billion messages contain purely printable characters) we will not find false positives.

Hope that helps clarifying.

arnezami

PS. Currently we are searching "only" 1/84000th of the 64-bit keyspace. So we are not even close to trying out all possible keys (let alone messages). But we hope the creators of the card have made it relatively easy for us (by using only certain characters in the key).
PPS. Technically there is a chance we will find a false positive but only if RC5 is somehow broken (also called a "collision").

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:43 am
Last edited by arnezami on Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Flynn
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Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 240
Location: UK

Thanks for clarifying it for me folks - I think I've had foggy brain syndrome lately Razz

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:16 am
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Guin
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Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 400
Location: Antartica

We now only need 10 cards to complete the set Smile

Pretty neat prize pool - especially when you then take the fact we have a poster - a tshirt - a book - a sock puppet and 2 packs of unopened cards Smile not to mention the MC contribution (*poke*) which has still to arrive Smile

ive posted a list 2 days ago and any contributions will be most greatful.

Any spare tretretretretre's would also be most welcome and could be added to the pool - although postage may be somewhat of a nightmare.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:11 am
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Rand0m
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 271
Location: London

The best thing about not having to worry about false positives is that there's now no danger of discarding the correct solution if it has a second level of encryption, even a simple one like an anagram or ROT13.

I'd had horrible visions of the clients producing a couple of hundred strings of seemingly-random letters, one of which was actually the gold being panned for, but which got chucked away unrecognised.

I agree that this would be exceptionally vicious on the party of Mind Candy, but you never know!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:40 pm
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jazzychad
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Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 74

Holy Cow!! I just built a new system with an AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ CPU, and I'm getting a WU done every 1min 43sec!! And each core is only working at 50%. This is insane! The config.txt setting is at "0" which is "as fast as possible" iirc... anyone know of anyway to crank more juice out of the cores? I've got it overclocked to 2.4 GHz right now... what fun!

In other news: 2 Million WU done... WHOOO!! Very Happy

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:20 pm
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Flynn
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Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 240
Location: UK

jazzychad wrote:
anyone know of anyway to crank more juice out of the cores?

Yep - run two clients Smile Just extract another copy from the zip to a second folder (it needs to be a fresh install, not a copy of your existing folder) and run it.

And can I second the WOOOO! on the 2 million mark, and while we're celebrating milestones - I just noticed I've gone past 100k wu's myself, so allow me a self indulgent WOOO too Very Happy Wink

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:18 am
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jazzychad
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Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 74

Flynn wrote:
Yep - run two clients Smile


I actually had the same thought while I was dreaming last night. I dreampt I was driving in my car down the highway and thought to myself, "Hmmm, what if I just ran two clients?" And I happily kept on driving....

The mind is a strange and wonderful thing.

<update> lol, wow... yep, that flatlined my computer.. cpu temperature went way up, too. Each finishes in about 1min 50sec. Maybe I'll tone it down a little so I don't blow up my precious new computer... very cool how each process got its own core, though</update>

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:10 pm
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xnera
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Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 79

jazzychad wrote:
<update> lol, wow... yep, that flatlined my computer.. cpu temperature went way up, too. Each finishes in about 1min 50sec. Maybe I'll tone it down a little so I don't blow up my precious new computer... very cool how each process got its own core, though</update>


Yay, it's not just me, then! I have a home-built system with an Athlon 3000+ processor. When I try to run the client my CPU temperature shoots WAY up. The computer's shut itself off a few times. Sad

Waah! I want to join the assault, but it doesn't look like I'll be able to unless I figure out some magic settings or determine if there's some other hardware issue going on. I haven't ruled out hardware yet, because the computer DID turn itself off once when I wasn;t running the client. But mostly, it's been when the client's been running.

Any suggestions, folks?

(also, hi! Been lurking unforums for about a year now. Just got into Perplex City a few weeks ago--it's my first ARG--and I'm quite addicted.)

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:24 pm
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jazzychad
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Joined: 03 May 2006
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Well, anytime you run stuff on your CPU that is very computation heavey (e.g. this client) it will heat up a lot just because all of the circuits are being used. If the client is using 100% of your CPU this will definitely happen.

If your computer is overheating just sitting there, then there's another issue at hand... maybe your heatsink/fan are installed incorrectly? It should run pretty cool when it's doing nothing. Also, make sure there isn't a whole lot of dust covering everything inside the case... I cleared out all the dust from my old system and it ran about 15 degrees C cooler afterward!

If you want, you can pm me and we can talk about what might be going on... we'd love for you to join in the assault, but none of us would want you to fry your machine over it... i think Laughing

PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:33 pm
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pheebs
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yay! finally managed to get it working (new computer, new broadband connection) doing 1 unit every 2 mins roughly....

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:05 am
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Seej
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 614

xnera wrote:
Any suggestions, folks?

A big fan. No, wait, 2 big fans! Or you could just immerse your entire PC in oil to convect the heat away like this guy.

Seriously though, my Athlon 2800+ XP gets about 12 degrees hotter when it's running the client too. There's probably a setting somewhere in your BIOS that allows you to change the safety shutdown temperature. Of course, use EXTREME CAUTION when doing this because you could accidentally let the magic blue smoke out of your processor.

A third alternative is to underclock your processor a bit (just while you're running the client of course) since that should keep it from getting so hot.

There's also the really simple option of making sure your PC is well ventilated, not shoved up in a corner next to a radiator. This can make two or three degrees difference, which may be all you need.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:51 am
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Frenzy
Boot

Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 11
Location: Canada

And dust is your enemy.

Use a compressed air duster to get rid of dust in hard-to-reach places. But make sure the can is upright: inverting or shaking it can release the propellant (white mist), which can damage electronics.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:40 am
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xnera
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Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 79

Thanks for the advice, everyone! I did peek in my system a few days ago, and it didn't appear too dusty, but I'll find/purchase a can of compressed air and give it a good cleaning.

This morning I played around with the throttle settings. Right now it's at 150. The client's running fairly slow, but it's running, and my temperature settings look to be okay at this speed. Smile Hopefully I can get my system tuned up so I can let the client run faster, but I'll take this for now!

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:28 pm
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duckiemonster
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Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 554
Location: Oxford, UK

I was going to say earlier, the throttle setting is your friend.

If you change the number in the second line to 500, it'll only use 50% of your CPU powerythingle. This allows me to run the client on my decidedly un-l33t and ancient flappytop... as long as I don't want to do anything as technical as checking my email at the same time.

One day, there shall be a new computer. Oh yes.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:11 pm
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