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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): Questions/Meta
Durga: Still going rampant?
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Caspian
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Joined: 21 Oct 2005
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Location: Milwaukee

 		Durga: Still going rampant?
Alright beekeepers, I'd like to start a little discussion. I suppose this could be considered trout, but hopefully since the game is long since over, the offense won't be considered that bad. I searched for terms regarding this topic, but there were about 250 returns and frankly I don't wish to wade through all of them. So here goes:

If you have not experienced the wonderment that is ilovebees and you someday might perchance to do so - TURN BACK!!! SPOILERS AHEAD!!!

So I was talking to a beekeeper about Halo and we started talking about AIs and Rampancy. I mentioned something about Durga going rampant and she said something about how she wouldn't be going rampant. I think my reply was "Wha-huh?" To which she replied with something to the effect of that since Durga found out the truth about Yasmine and was integrated with her to form the entire Melissa, she was stable - that is, she'd never go rampant.

I had never got this out of the story and at the time I just figured it was just something I missed. But the wheels of my mind started turning over the last couple days and I remembered some dialogue from the one of the closing segments:

Exceprt From: JERSEY - Just a Little Sting
Durga: Jersey! Not yet...please, just a few more weeks? I don't even know how much time I have before--
Jersey: Surpressing a draft notice? Does that mean you're going rampant?
D (over him): It doesn't mean I'm going rampant!
J: What does it mean then?
D: It means I care. It means...I take care of my crew.

*wipes tears from eyes

So anyway, it's that phrase in the first line that makes me wonder. She says she doesn't know how much time she has before... I assume she meant before she went rampant. So what do you think? Do you think Durga would still go rampant? Do you think she was stable and just wasn't cognizant of it? Was she talking about something else? Let's hear some opinions!

PS: Regarding my own cred, for those of you who do not know, I refer to myself as a beelated beekeeper. A wannabee, if you will. I had my cranium too far up an orafice to realize the what I could have experienced while ilovebees was playing out and now I am perpetually kicking myself in the shins for it. But I have listened to the entire story (several, several times) and caught up on as much as I could of the archives. It'll never come close to experiencing it first hand, but I've probably come about as close as a beelated beekeeper can.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:53 am
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Hellion88
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 		An AI's knowledge of its donor brain wouldn't prevent it from going rampant. Cortana is aware that she is based on a mental template of Dr. Halsey (The Fall of Reach); yet as anyone who's seen the Halo 3 trailer knows, she's clearly going rampant. While Durga's recognition of who she was may have slowed the onset of rampancy, she remains as doomed as any other AI.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:23 am
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vector
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 		I never thought it was simply her acceptance of learning of her past, but more the splitting of her personalities near the time of her impending rampancy and eventual re-intagration that allowed her to avoid the rampant naval gaising that AIs sucome to in the end. Rember that it wasnt Durga, but Melissa that was the one going rampant and in then end it was Durga that won over.

I have never seen anything that says that an AI HAS to go rampant, just that they do.

I took the Durga's comment about wanting Jersy to wait for just a few more weeks not because she knew she was going rampant, but because she knew that the covenent were likely on their way to Earth and Jersey being in the military would only put him directly in harms way where she could not do anything to protect him.

So I fully belive that Durga has avoided rampancy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:16 am
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Phaedra
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vector wrote:
I took the Durga's comment about wanting Jersy to wait for just a few more weeks not because she knew she was going rampant, but because she knew that the covenent were likely on their way to Earth and Jersey being in the military would only put him directly in harms way where she could not do anything to protect him.


Ditto -- hence her turning up the music when the Covenant hit and so on. She knew it was coming.

And I don't recall where it is, but I thought there was some comment made somewhere about how Durga had done something no other AI had done, and got the impression it would prevent her from going rampant.

I haven't read the books, but -- Cortana knows she's based on Dr. Halsey, but is that the same as actually confronting that personality and integrating it?

I mean, mere knowledge and actual experience are different things. To use an analogy, I think it'd be somewhat akin to the difference between knowing that you're the reincarnation of Cleopatra, and actually having all her memories.

So, okay, Cortana knows that she's based on Dr. Halsey, but is that the same as what Durga went through? Is the personality she's based on actually accessible to her?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:06 am
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CoffeeJedi
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 		I'd like to think that her reconnection with Yasmine has effectively grounded her. Perhaps our heroes have inadvertantly stumbled upon the cure for smart-AI rampancy. Rip the construct up into its functioning parts, unlock the human memories and personality at the core, then put everything back together.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:59 am
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Hellion88
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Phaedra wrote:
Cortana knows she's based on Dr. Halsey, but is that the same as actually confronting that personality and integrating it?


Difficult to say. Unlike Durga or any other smart AI, Cortana has actually worked extensively with her donor; yet her proximity to Halsey creates no ill effects; no repelling force like the one Durga experiences when she meets Kamal.

Of course, there are lots of other variables to consider. I don't really see a solid answer to the question of whether Durga is going rampant or not; The dialogue of ILB seems too ambiguous to provide a solid answer, and the Halo universe it's based on is horribly muddled- especially when you remember that they stated, explicitly, that ILB wasn't "Halo canon".

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:13 pm
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vector
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Hellion88 wrote:
Phaedra wrote:
Cortana knows she's based on Dr. Halsey, but is that the same as actually confronting that personality and integrating it?


Difficult to say. Unlike Durga or any other smart AI, Cortana has actually worked extensively with her donor; yet her proximity to Halsey creates no ill effects; no repelling force like the one Durga experiences when she meets Kamal.

Of course, there are lots of other variables to consider. I don't really see a solid answer to the question of whether Durga is going rampant or not; The dialogue of ILB seems too ambiguous to provide a solid answer, and the Halo universe it's based on is horribly muddled- especially when you remember that they stated, explicitly, that ILB wasn't "Halo canon".


Correction. Halo is not ILB cannon. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:53 pm
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Shad0
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 		Re: Durga: Still going rampant?
A few thoughts:

(1) First, if I recall correctly, the term "rampant" never appeared in the Haloverse before ILB. It was a term used in another Bungie game, Marathon. As far as "canon" goes, at the time Durga said what she said no one could claim to have any idea what rampancy would mean for her. All we knew was what Durga explained to Jersey back in Week #9.

(2) Since no smart AI had ever been reintegrated with its base personality before, even Durga wouldn't necessarily know whether that reintegration would prevent her from going rampant.

(3) Having said that, it nevertheless does make a certain amount of logical sense, as coffeejedi said. Durga attributed rampancy to the AIs inability to handle increased complexity. Smart AIs are mapped from a human brain. Parts of that brain are then permanently locked away, presumably so as not to interfere with optimal functioning of the AI. Since smart AIs go rampant but humans don't, it could be logical to conclude that the segregated portions of the original human brain are necessary to enable the brain -- or the AI based thereon -- to cope with increasing complexity without going rampant. By this logic, Durga would be fine (thanks to the Pious Flea, ironically enough).

(4) I agree that, when Durga said what she said, she was just using the threat of impending rampancy to get Jersey to stay with her longer instead of going off to become a soldier. She no longer had any reason to believe she was in imminent danger of rampancy -- by then she knew that the "dreams" she'd been concerned about turned out to be Yasmine's memories.

(5) And the real reason Durga will never go rampant: Unlike everyone else, she and Jersey weren't somewhere safe when the Covenant arrived. Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:57 am
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Phaedra
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 		Re: Durga: Still going rampant?
Shad0 wrote:
(5) And the real reason Durga will never go rampant: Unlike everyone else, she and Jersey weren't somewhere safe when the Covenant arrived. Crying or Very sad


Omigosh I never thought about that. I just assumed they'd be okay.

Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:59 pm
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thebruce
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 		Re: Durga: Still going rampant?
Phaedra wrote:
Shad0 wrote:
(5) And the real reason Durga will never go rampant: Unlike everyone else, she and Jersey weren't somewhere safe when the Covenant arrived. Crying or Very sad


Omigosh I never thought about that. I just assumed they'd be okay.

Shocked


ditto. I like to think they found a way to survive Smile I mean, it's Durga. I'm sure she'd be able to compute some way to protect herself and Jersey. We never really saw her full potential. The closest was her role in the finding of the artifact. I think that was just the surface of her potential...

Shad0 wrote:
(3) Having said that, it nevertheless does make a certain amount of logical sense, as coffeejedi said. Durga attributed rampancy to the AIs inability to handle increased complexity. Smart AIs are mapped from a human brain. Parts of that brain are then permanently locked away, presumably so as not to interfere with optimal functioning of the AI. Since smart AIs go rampant but humans don't, it could be logical to conclude that the segregated portions of the original human brain are necessary to enable the brain -- or the AI based thereon -- to cope with increasing complexity without going rampant. By this logic, Durga would be fine (thanks to the Pious Flea, ironically enough).


On the flipside, if certain human portions are locked away as it were, to increase the AI's potential, but result in rampancy over time, what's the consequence to the AI if those human portions are unlocked, saving the AI from rampancy?

I think in this case, if Durga gains the ability to remain 'alive', the cost may be much of her highly advanced AI abilities... the unlocked human portions essentially holding her back.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:36 pm
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Caspian
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Joined: 21 Oct 2005
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 		Re: Durga: Still going rampant?
Shad0 wrote:
A few thoughts:

(1) First, if I recall correctly, the term "rampant" never appeared in the Haloverse before ILB. It was a term used in another Bungie game, Marathon. As far as "canon" goes, at the time Durga said what she said no one could claim to have any idea what rampancy would mean for her. All we knew was what Durga explained to Jersey back in Week #9.


Well, it is mentioned once in Halo: Combat Evolved (aka, Halo 1) but it's more of an easter egg and not referring to an AI. If you shoot Captain Keyes in the first level, Cortana yells something to the marines including the phrase, "The Master Chief has gone rampant..." Since this scenario isn't exactly canon, it could just be one of the many Marathon easter eggs in Halo.

Shad0 wrote:
(2) Since no smart AI had ever been reintegrated with its base personality before, even Durga wouldn't necessarily know whether that reintegration would prevent her from going rampant.

(3) Having said that, it nevertheless does make a certain amount of logical sense, as coffeejedi said. Durga attributed rampancy to the AIs inability to handle increased complexity. Smart AIs are mapped from a human brain. Parts of that brain are then permanently locked away, presumably so as not to interfere with optimal functioning of the AI. Since smart AIs go rampant but humans don't, it could be logical to conclude that the segregated portions of the original human brain are necessary to enable the brain -- or the AI based thereon -- to cope with increasing complexity without going rampant. By this logic, Durga would be fine (thanks to the Pious Flea, ironically enough).


I began to think along these lines immediately after making this post, but I didn't want to answer my own question before letting discussion develop. I don't think simply knowing that she was created from Yasmine would prevent rampancy. But I could buy the idea that integrating the parts of the human brain that are "locked away" could prevent it since humans don't go rampant. On the other hand, even fully integrated with Yasmine's memories and whatnot, Durga is still fundamentally different from a human brain in the fact that she is an AI with data and subroutines and programming that a human brain doesn't have. While your point (3) could be an explanation as to why reintegration would prevent rampancy, I don't think it proves the point. (Not that that's a necessity, I'm just sayin.)

Shad0 wrote:
(4) I agree that, when Durga said what she said, she was just using the threat of impending rampancy to get Jersey to stay with her longer instead of going off to become a soldier. She no longer had any reason to believe she was in imminent danger of rampancy -- by then she knew that the "dreams" she'd been concerned about turned out to be Yasmine's memories.


Given Durga's love for Jersey (it always chokes me up when Durga doesn't want Jersey to be the one to disarm the Device), I totally agree that even if Durga was not going rampant and if she was cognizant of that fact (which I doubt she would be, even if she was no longer doomed to rampancy), she would TOTALLY keep that knowledge from Jersey and use his misinformation to protect him...to take care of her crew.

Shad0 wrote:
(5) And the real reason Durga will never go rampant: Unlike everyone else, she and Jersey weren't somewhere safe when the Covenant arrived. Crying or Very sad


Can't say I agree with you there. We obviously don't know what happened after MC left for Delta Halo, but as far as the initial invasion (led by Prophet of Regret), the Covies came with a very small fleet and New Mombasa is the only place on Earth the Covies landed. Now we do see some bombing of Earth in some of the movies in Halo 2, but we don't know how extensive that was. Cosidering the fact there is something on Earth that told Regret where to find Delta Halo, they wouldn't be too harsh with the bombing. SO, it's conceivable that Durga and Jersey were both safe. Even if Jersey wasn't, Durga could have easily copied herself into some safe host. I'd wager that Durga is still alive and spying...
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"I - I don't think I do, Sir," said Caspian. "I'm only a kid."
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:57 pm
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thebruce
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 		Re: Durga: Still going rampant?
caspian_x wrote:
On the other hand, even fully integrated with Yasmine's memories and whatnot, Durga is still fundamentally different from a human brain in the fact that she is an AI with data and subroutines and programming that a human brain doesn't have. While your point (3) could be an explanation as to why reintegration would prevent rampancy, I don't think it proves the point. (Not that that's a necessity, I'm just sayin.)


ahhh... what composes 'life'... Smile
You missed the enormous discussion/debate we had during ILB about the value of AI vs human life, whether AI's are alive in the sense that humans are alive, etc... I searched for it again, but IIRC, I think it was deleted... there is another thread here though which continues the topic, and has a lot of interesting philosophical discussion going on with input and perspectives from loads of people. Even at 10 pages, it's still an enormous read because of so many detailed posts Smile
ah the memories!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:17 am
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krystyn
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 		Threads don't get deleted from the forums unless they're dirty, dirty spammers.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:40 pm
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thebruce
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krystyn wrote:
Threads don't get deleted from the forums unless they're dirty, dirty spammers.


hehe tru tru. Do you know where it is then? Because I couldn't find it, and I tried numerous iterations of search criteria... for some reason I recall something happening with the thread due to its content, but maybe I was wrong... I dunno. but I'm sure you know the thread I'm referring to Smile I don't think you were yet a mod at that time...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:17 am
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vector
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thebruce wrote:
krystyn wrote:
Threads don't get deleted from the forums unless they're dirty, dirty spammers.


hehe tru tru. Do you know where it is then? Because I couldn't find it, and I tried numerous iterations of search criteria... for some reason I recall something happening with the thread due to its content, but maybe I was wrong... I dunno. but I'm sure you know the thread I'm referring to Smile I don't think you were yet a mod at that time...


Found it!

Yar! I rember that conversation! Your posts were sooooooooo long! Which brought on this quote from me to you.....

Quote:
Ugh, i know that filibuster is a legitimate tactic but shiesh give us a break here!


Those were good times...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:52 am
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