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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: MetaCortechs » MetaCortechs: General/Updates
Reverse Engineering
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KnowThySelf
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Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 21
Location: Hades

 		Reverse Engineering
Ok, I want to start this out by saying that I'm not a techie (regretably) but I can play this game another way. It seems to me that there must be a purpose behind this game. Certainly, with a Matrix theme, and a new Matrix movie about to be released, it seems that this ARG must be an investment in the 11/05/03 release date.

Why take the time, effort, and cash to buy multiple domain names, write the intricate plot, and make the graphics ect .....?

There must be a targeted end date to the game. If there wasn't, all the info we need would already be out there. The absence of several key items .... e-mails, voice messages, access to employee logins, and their introduction to the game after discoveries all indicate that the people running the game monitor our messages ..... how would they know that we've solved a puzzle if they didn't read out correspondence? We solve a puzzle and they throw a bone ..... The last thing they want is us to be stumped and bored. I don't think there are more than a few hundred people playing, so they need to keep the audience entertained. If we gave up, this would be their biggest waste of time, ever .....

That brings me to my second point. In any role-playing game, the persons running the game aren't doing a good job if the game doesn't flow. If we hit an impass, they need to nudge it along.

Third and final point, someone lurking among us is more involved that we know. There is a force guiding Neo, there is a force guiding Beth, and there is a force guiding us........

Given the limited # of sites that monitor this ARG, it shouldn't be to hard to see who has posted vial info in a timely manner......... especially when the explaination is out of left field ..... if we can discard some of the useless info, we can narrow down the possible solutions.

Assuming that I'm on the right track .... there has to be a way for a tech savy player to take advantage of this .....While we play a game based on their reality, they live in our world, and that means that they play by our rules. Given the apparent intelligence level on this board, I'd say the player have the advantage here. There is no cheating in a reality game ..... Who created the 800#'s, the websites, the graphics, the plot ...... there is always a way to find out these things ..... There are rules to the game (Matrix), but those playing outside have the advantage of bending the rules while those inside it are bound by them...................................... you think that's air you're breathing?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:07 am
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BrianEnigma
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Joined: 05 Oct 2003
Posts: 1199
Location: Pacific Northwest

 		Re: Reverse Engineering
KnowThySelf wrote:
Assuming that I'm on the right track .... there has to be a way for a tech savy player to take advantage of this .....While we play a game based on their reality, they live in our world, and that means that they play by our rules. Given the apparent intelligence level on this board, I'd say the player have the advantage here. There is no cheating in a reality game ..... Who created the 800#'s, the websites, the graphics, the plot ...... there is always a way to find out these things ..... There are rules to the game (Matrix), but those playing outside have the advantage of bending the rules while those inside it are bound by them...................................... you think that's air you're breathing?


People "stuck" inside the Matrix do not know there are rules to be bent or broken (needing to breathe, possessing superpowers, etc.). The people playing this ARG are well aware of the "rules" and DO know they can be bent or broken (reverse DNS lookups, decompiling code, etc.). But really, where is the fun in that? When you read a mystery novel, you have the power to break the rules and skip to the last page to find out if the butler really did do it. Do you? When you fill out a crossword puzzle, you have the power to skip to the back of the magazine and get all the answers immediately without having to ponder #13 Across. Do you? It is not that we are FORCED to be bound by the rules. We choose to follow them, as it makes the game more fun and the outcome much more rewarding.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:39 am
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yeahyeah
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Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 282

 		In addition to whats already been pointed out, if we did 'out' somebody, where would that get us, if anything (I would think that) they'd back off and the hints wouldn't come out anymore to keep the reality as it is.

We aren't even sure if they (PMs) are actually reacting to exactly to what we do or say, so I'm not sure of how we would go about flushing out the details by taking advantage of knowing who was involved behind the scenes. Other then a few things that could be chalked up to coincidence (me babbling about wanting at least a minor update such as 'beth needs milk' which was followed by beth bothing in her metadex about milk) the only reactionary things could be hints if we are stumped (the changing of the aquapolis paintover picture). But in more cases then not, we either solve something quickly, or dispute it for ages, so I for one am not seeing a great deal of hand holding, although there may be more then I realize.

I seem to be rambling now.. Anyways, all in all, as with anything, information coming from someone that is known to be right in the past, is usually valued more then that of someone that is commonly wrong, so if I'm understanding your premise, it essentially goes along with what I for one already do as far as evaluating the worth of a statement by history..

In addition to that, I have seen several instances where the curtain blew in the wind a bit, and pointed out at least one of more of the parties involved in this (which I will omit because its not important), but have seen no worth in the knowledge other then its trivia potential :)


Edit: as to what Brian said, as far as decompiling flash or using other more passive techniques to see how something works doesn't always seem out of bounds to me, there are certain situations where its to everyones advantage (imho) to know how something works. For instance the login flash on metacortechs, either by decompiling, or by passively sniffing your connection, it is easy to see its currently not operational since it can't get a file it needs to work. I for one would of spent a great deal of time trying passwords if I didnt know, and if I were a real 'hacker' that was evesdroping on the developments (Which is the role I pretend I'm in for the ARG) then I would of done exactly that.


Exceptions to that would be if decompiling something allowed me to jump ahead of the story, in a way that wasnt intended.. Such as if decompiling lead me to a method/way of viewing directory listing, or files I wasnt supposed to.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:03 am
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AnthraX101
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Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 797
yeahyeah wrote:
Exceptions to that would be if decompiling something allowed me to jump ahead of the story, in a way that wasnt intended.. Such as if decompiling lead me to a method/way of viewing directory listing, or files I wasnt supposed to.


Or if that file was there, and gave you all the passwords, yes. That would be pretty out of bounds. But then again you must question weither or not we were supposed to have been trying passwords all along? Perhaps that was part of the game? It all falls down to a judgement call.

There are rules to every game. As much as it doesn't seem like it, there are always guidelines to everything you do. Sure, you could short the path and skip right to the end, but what's the point? It's like cheating in a single player video game. Great, you beat it by using IDKFA. What did that get you however? Now if you actually took on a challenge and did it yourself, the right way, at the end you can actually say "I've done it. Woot."

AnthraX101

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:38 am
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DonkeyOatey
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Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 10

 		To ARG, perchance to dream (or: Why ask Who?)
These types of questions continue to come up during these games. I can relay the results of my experience with them.

Rule number one for any ARG has been "No Brute Forcing". This stems from the acknowledgement that so many of them have been manufactured and maintained by non-professional sources. Even when it turned out that companies were backing them, they weren't exactly backed by investors with deep pockets. So if you're trying to figure out what's "out of bounds", the best thing you can do is be sensitive to a PM's wallet. Bandwidth costs money, and though a PM would probably be ecstatic at the prospect of paying "more" for a larger player-base, (s)he's going to be pissed if it's 5 people writing scripts that hit their site a million times a minute.

With these money issues in mind, pretty much everything else is recognized as "in-bounds". Sure, there are likely 'intended' ways that we're supposed to find the information and progress the story, but players have surprised PMs more than once. The "reverse engineering" (note: a bit of a misnomer here, as that terms suggests learning how mechanisms work in order to duplicate them) tacticts being discussed in here are likely expected by the PMs, and in SOME cases maybe even encouraged. It's an individual judgement call what one might consider "cheating", but any PM must acknowledge that players are going to peek into pretty much everything they put out there. There are lines to be toed here, but mostly it's turns out to be a matter of chipping away at the player's enjoyment (ex: when you decompile that .swf file, you'll prove that it's not a real cam feed, and only a looping video image; but what does that serve but to blow your suspension of disbelief out of the water?)

Regarding anonymity, things become a bit trickier. Past PMs have acknowledged the frustration at players who find pleasure in chipping away at their much valued anonymity, but usually grudglingly admit the urge is natural. It should be said that knowledge of what's going on "behind the curtain" doesn't typically add anything to the enjoyment or understanding of the games, and can often detract from them. So, many players have come to recognize this "faux-pas" and most choose to suppress the urge and turn a blind eye to the curtain. Most of the time, the curtain is thrown back wide at the end, and lengthy discourse between players and PMs ensue, so I can only recommend to stiffle that urge and keep playing, and I'm pretty sure all your questions will eventually be answered.

In summary:
1) Make believe it's YOUR money (NOBRUTEFORCING)
2) Do you really have to know who's playing you right now?
3) Everything else is fair game
4) Just because it's fair, doesn't mean it's fun
5) NOBRUTEFORCING

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:55 am
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Miss Starchild
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Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Brazil

 		Re: Reverse Engineering
KnowThySelf wrote:
Ok, I want to start this out by saying that I'm not a techie (regretably) but I can play this game another way.

I'm not a techie either, my knowlodge of pcs are basiclly turn on, make it work (most of the times) and turn off. But while playing this came the veterans have said again and again what the rules are. They know more than I do so they are probably right.

Quote:
It seems to me that there must be a purpose behind this game. Certainly, with a Matrix theme, and a new Matrix movie about to be released, it seems that this ARG must be an investment in the 11/05/03 release date.

We still don't know if this game is official or not. I prefer to play it like it's not official so I don't hold up any expectations towards the 11/05/03 date, or any date for that matter. If it turns up to be official, will be great, but if this is fan made is great as well.

Quote:
Why take the time, effort, and cash to buy multiple domain names, write the intricate plot, and make the graphics ect .....?

Then why take time to play this game in the first place? You don't have to play it. Just come here when it's over.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:32 pm
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AnthraX101
Entrenched

Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 797

 		Re: Reverse Engineering
Miss Starchild wrote:

Quote:
Why take the time, effort, and cash to buy multiple domain names, write the intricate plot, and make the graphics ect .....?

Then why take time to play this game in the first place? You don't have to play it. Just come here when it's over.


PPPsssttt...He was using that as a preface to his speculation about the "point" of the game to the creators. Wink

AnthraX101

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:42 pm
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Marl64
Unfettered


Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 456
Location: Prisoner of Zion

 		Re: Reverse Engineering
KnowThySelf wrote:
someone lurking among us is more involved that we know. There is a force guiding Neo, there is a force guiding Beth, and there is a force guiding us........

Given the limited # of sites that monitor this ARG, it shouldn't be to hard to see who has posted vial info in a timely manner.........

And what better way to divert attention away than be the one that starts the speculation.... Agent KnowThySelf? Shocked Very Happy

I've had suspicions for some time, but is it really so unreasonable? Like you say, there has to be some level of monitoring and adjustment, without it, all we have is a "Consulting Detective" type of game.

I've seen some timely posts from annonymous "guests" and did wonder for a while if that was one of the reasons for having this facility. I mean it is an ARG board right? and is as much the domain of PMs as it is players.

To paraphrase a certain sixties TV show "Who are the Prisoners and Who are the Warders?" (SIC) Wink
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Marl
(There is no spoon, oh wait, there it is)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:23 pm
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Moatie
Boot

Joined: 17 Oct 2003
Posts: 52

 		Re: Reverse Engineering
[quote="KnowThySelf"]
Given the limited # of sites that monitor this ARG, it shouldn't be to hard to see who has posted vial info in a timely manner......... especially when the explaination is out of left field .....quote]

If you are one of the PM, then we know you are in charge of spelling

Laughing

Moatie

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:31 pm
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Marl64
Unfettered


Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 456
Location: Prisoner of Zion

 		Re: Reverse Engineering
Moatie wrote:
If you are one of the PM, then we know you are in charge of spelling Laughing


Hey, you want to be careful criticising spelling on Halloween Very Happy Mr. Green


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Marl
(There is no spoon, oh wait, there it is)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:38 pm
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KnowThySelf
Boot

Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 21
Location: Hades

 		sorry about my spelling, it was late at night and I was a little inebriated ......

I promise not to get on the boards tonight ..... we'll maybe I'll just read....

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:43 pm
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yanka
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Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 1214
Location: undesirable

 		Decompiling - not legit?
I, for one, am not interested in lifting the curtain/revealing PM identities/bruting logins or just generally doing anything that I'm not supposed to do (whatever that may be??). But, being a newbie to ARG, I find it hard to determine just what is considered to be a "no-no". While it's rather obvious to me that, for example, hacking a PM's login and using it to access the ftp server is "out-of-game", it's not obvious to me just which kind of hacking is "out-of-game". The majority of the carelessly files were found by bruteforce - but that is generally considered a "no-no."

Which brings me to this question that's been nagging me since Aqaupolis' "webcam" went "live". Why is the word "decompile" treated as taboo regardless of which flash it pertains to? While I would not subscribe to decompiling the metacortechs' login, I see no problem at all in decking, for example, this flash.

Destegging/"un-layering" etc. images is perfectly fine, as far as I know. I suspect that a certain where.gif was broken into sprites after it was animated as well. Why can't we do that with flash (it's not a rhetorical question - I am really at a loss about this one)?? LOTS of stuff can be hidden in flash, and I am not sure why it is assumed that "hiding stuff in flash" is definitely not going to be utilized here Question

DonkeyOatey wrote:
There are lines to be toed here, but mostly it's turns out to be a matter of chipping away at the player's enjoyment (ex: when you decompile that .swf file, you'll prove that it's not a real cam feed, and only a looping video image; but what does that serve but to blow your suspension of disbelief out of the water?)


Who would want to prove that it's not a real feed (especially since there is not much to prove there - it's pretty obvious)? I think that would be a waste of time. But there could be hidden layers and layers of stuff - images, text, and clips - put there for the sole purpose of us finding them; like stegged text in that Oct. 9 gif. Just to prove a point, I made a flash with 4 hidden objects in it (it's probably better to save target - the site loads veery slooowly Embarassed , it's my kid brother's eternal project in-the-making). And this is a lame, 13-frame, static, made-in-20-minutes flash. I mean, I just don't understand why it is pre-supposed that anything named *.swf is: a) automatically off-limits; b) won't have anything that we're meant to extract in it.
???
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:27 pm
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BrianEnigma
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Joined: 05 Oct 2003
Posts: 1199
Location: Pacific Northwest

 		Re: Decompiling - not legit?
KnowThySelf wrote:
While we play a game based on their reality, they live in our world, and that means that they play by our rules. Given the apparent intelligence level on this board, I'd say the player have the advantage here. There is no cheating in a reality game ..... Who created the 800#'s, the websites, the graphics, the plot ...... there is always a way to find out these things

yanka wrote:
Destegging/"un-layering" etc. images is perfectly fine, as far as I know. I suspect that a certain where.gif was broken into sprites after it was animated as well. Why can't we do that with flash (it's not a rhetorical question - I am really at a loss about this one)?? LOTS of stuff can be hidden in flash, and I am not sure why it is assumed that "hiding stuff in flash" is definitely not going to be utilized here Question


I think the original question had more to do with behind-the-curtain technical data--phone listings, DNS registrants, etc--and less to do with decompiling. Decompiling hits a grey area--for both ARGs and RRNGs (Real Reality Non Games--that is "real life"). Except for very special circumstances, it is illegal in the US to decompile because of the DMCA. Of course, everyone ignores the DMCA and reverse engineers things anyway. In ARGs, it seems taboo. In my opinion, it *should* be okay to decompile things like Flash. The web is a client/server system. The server houses the data and performs the calculations. The client (your web browser, with Flash and Java plugins) acts as a monitor and keyboard. If secret calculations need to be performed, everyone in the security industry can tell you it is common sense to perform those calculations server-side. For instance, there are two [main] ways to perform password checks. (1) The client (the Metacortechs Flash file, for instance) downloads a list of usernames, passwords, and destination URLs. It compares what you typed to what it knows, then sends you to the redirect. (2) A similar Flash file can take the username and password you enter (possibly hashed for extra security), query a server with the data, and get a go/no-go response.

<Speculation>Personally, I think the Flash login (with the list of passwords being 404'ed) kind of goes hand-in-hand with some of their news articles about them being a hack target. Such a login system is so stupid that it works as a pretty good backstory. "We had an insecure login system that some web monkey that knows nothing about security designed. We got hacked. We took the system offline." Of course, all they had to do to take the system offline was remove the list of usernames and passwords, which effectively breaks the Flash client. It also saves bandwidth.</Speculation>

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:53 pm
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yanka
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Joined: 06 Oct 2003
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 		Re: Decompiling - not legit?
BriEnigma wrote:
I think the original question had more to do with behind-the-curtain technical data

I know... I'm sorry for going completely off-topic here... but I asked exactly what I meant - why is it taken as a given that the (grr... don't know what to call them - "not PMs"?) would not INTENTIONALLY hide stuff in flash? Definite in-game stuff - like "here is your new directory and login"? Because decompling is [semi]illegal? Hacking is illegal to begin with, but it is the very substance of the game.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:18 pm
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DonkeyOatey
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Joined: 20 Sep 2002
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 		Re: Decompiling - not legit?
yanka wrote:
why is it taken as a given that the (grr... don't know what to call them - "not PMs"?) would not INTENTIONALLY hide stuff in flash?


I'd start off by reiterating the fact that a PM must expect that someone is going to decompile their flash files. And for all the reasons that you bring up, I don't think it is considered "out of bounds" to do so. Arguably, many PMs may intend you to do so.

The questionable issues comes in with the nature of flash. Not knowing much about flash programming, I'm talking a little out of turn here, but when we all first started decompiling flash in earlier games, it became apparent that all the login processes we were seeing were being secured on the client side, which made it way too easy for us to find passwords that were obviously supposed to be found in more "in-game" ways. As a result, flash became sort of a "grey area" (read: "hey, we know you can do it, but don't break into this because there's no way for us to really secure the information that needs to be secured"). Furthermore, PMs stopped securing as much critical information inside flash as they could get away with. BriEnigma seems to point out that there ARE ways to secure such information server side. The only question is, do the PMs know about that?

Not knowing the answer to that last question, I'd revert back to the aforementioned "rules". Since it's not brute force, and it doesn't seem to exhaust any bandwidth resources, it's allowed, most likely expected, and possibly encouraged. If you start finding too much stuff in there too easily, and can "verify" other more "viable" aquisition paths later in the game, maybe you'll want to back off? Again, it's a judgement call, but I think you're right in your assumption that it's fair game.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 1:45 am
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