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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Catching the Wish (CTW2) » CTW2: Puzzles
[EMAIL/Puzzle Trail] Mystes.com July 17
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
fonograph wrote:
How did you know to make that particular table, in that specific configuration?

How I solved the puzzle was trial and error, similar to treating the code as a simple substitution cryptoquote. Starting with frequencies, the 1-1 pair is the most common in the message, so begin with a guess that it is an E; proceed with other pairs and frequencies, plugging in and testing against the common English letters ETAOINS... The first pattern that stood out for me was a string of -*EO-*E- where the *'s were matching pairs, so I tried PEOPLE and realized that the associated number pairs for LOP were spaced appropriately for this to be a sequential substitution pattern, not random.

That's when i started to fill in the table. Going back and forth between letter frequencies, the message, and the table, eventually the pattern appeared. The final table as I posted was not entirely filled in until after I solved the message. Posting that was just the quickest way for me to show others how to work thru the solution directly. Explaining how to solve a cryptogram is much more of an art than a science.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:43 pm
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Killalaz
Decorated


Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 165
Location: Philadelphia, PA

 		are you saying you made random tables of letters until one of them fit your model? I understand about frequencies of letters but what I don't see is how you decided which letters went on which line and in what order. I would appreciate a better explanation of how you did this.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:08 am
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fonograph
Boot


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 55
Location: the future!
catherwood wrote:
fonograph wrote:
How did you know to make that particular table, in that specific configuration?

How I solved the puzzle was trial and error, similar to treating the code as a simple substitution cryptoquote. Starting with frequencies, the 1-1 pair is the most common in the message, so begin with a guess that it is an E; proceed with other pairs and frequencies, plugging in and testing against the common English letters ETAOINS... The first pattern that stood out for me was a string of -*EO-*E- where the *'s were matching pairs, so I tried PEOPLE and realized that the associated number pairs for LOP were spaced appropriately for this to be a sequential substitution pattern, not random.

That's when i started to fill in the table. Going back and forth between letter frequencies, the message, and the table, eventually the pattern appeared. The final table as I posted was not entirely filled in until after I solved the message. Posting that was just the quickest way for me to show others how to work thru the solution directly. Explaining how to solve a cryptogram is much more of an art than a science.


Nice! That's some good stuff there.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:08 am
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Killalaz wrote:
are you saying you made random tables of letters until one of them fit your model? I understand about frequencies of letters but what I don't see is how you decided which letters went on which line and in what order. I would appreciate a better explanation of how you did this.

No, I didn't have a table at first. I started with simple substitution, something like this:
ITDEATIOSTOQENDEATIOSYEHYUEIAEIPUETHNEEOSTHROZZEAE...
but then I backed off and only looked at the most likely letters first
-T-E-T---T--E--E-T---*EO*-E--E---ETO-EE--TO----...
As I said, it is hard to explain how to solve cryptoquotes, especially without word spacing. Some people just naturally see words pop out of that mess; I guess I have a talent for that. My tool is an Excel spreadsheet, so I can experiment with substitutions; the look-up table and the message fill up simultaneously. I really am not going to derail a game I'm not even playing to go into a detailed tutorial, sorry.

The table was backsolved. If the message had been encoded with a random substitution, it would have taken much longer; if the substitution had been straight-forward alphabetical order, someone would have beaten me to the solution.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:24 am
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Citizen Kane
Unfettered


Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 486
Location: Aglaura, NJ

 		Is that just a regular spreadsheet, or something where you plug in letters, press a macro button and it gives you possibilities?

Cause if so, I'd like to take a look at it myself. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:33 am
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catherwood-offline
Guest


 		split out the cryto tutorial
my apologies for being short with my earlier post. If a forum mod would like to split out this general discussion, I could go into more detail if people really want a walk-thru. I'll take some time to explain the Excel "vlookup()" function and how I use it -- it's a bit of a hack, and serious crypto solvers get specialized software to assist them instead.

I'm also willing to schedule a time slot in IRC to walk people thru it in real time chat, if they prefer. It's a topic of interest to the greater community, and probably doesn't need to be buried inside a thread about this particular game or this puzzle in particular either. You're supposed to be immersed in the story! Wink

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:49 pm
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Killalaz
Decorated


Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 165
Location: Philadelphia, PA

 		That would be nice of you, I would love to hear your methods of solving cryptograms it really sounds like you got a knack for it. Cryptology is something I have been becoming incresingly interested in since I started playing ARGs. Untill now however I have been mostly trying to figure them out on my own without any help or using any "methods" so it would be pretty cool to learn from an apparent expert, can you please PM me with the time you will do the IRC discussion or however you are going to do it. That would be appreciated, also is there any books or websites that I could read to educate me on the subject?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:54 am
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		No reason to split the thread at this time. It's great reading to see the progression of information and then solves along the way. If you want you can just edit at your leisure the original explanation or folks can PM you.

Thanks for joining in on the puzzle, cather... so now you'll start playing with us??? Wink
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r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:51 am
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Killalaz
Decorated


Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 165
Location: Philadelphia, PA

 		I came up with some new information after looking deeper into the phrase from /mercury.html "those who have both desire and knowledge shall proceed"
I found this info about Aristotle

Quote:
For Aristotle, both desire and knowledge lead to action. Actions that spring from a desire must follow accurate information. If an action do not follow accurate information, then the action is done in haste. Thus, the perfect Aristotelian man possesses accurate information in all his actions. St. Thomas complements the virtue theory of Aristotle by saying that prudence involves true reason and the rightness of appetite (S.T., II-II, p. 55, a. 2, ad 2m).

If anything it is an interesting statement but it may help us on our journey as well. In case your wondering I did try /action.html and it doesn't work hehe Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:59 am
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Sylvia
I Have No Life

Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 2062

 		According to this, Week 10

http://www.catchingthewish.com/StorySoFar/index.html

We are looking for some one who can see into other worlds:
Quote:
The Mystai make a new request of their initiates - they are seeking one who can "see into other worlds"


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:26 pm
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