View topic - [UPDATE] Beth's Metadex and Zip Files [Nov 2]

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Forum index » Archive » Archive: MetaCortechs » MetaCortechs: Puzzles

[UPDATE] Beth's Metadex and Zip Files [Nov 2]

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Giskard
Sassypants

Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 2066
Location: Chicago

I was just thinking that if the characters are all wandering around inside a/the matrix world, how exactly did the stuff occur that Beth witnessed? A "PDA" inside the Matrix wouldnot be a real piece of electronics, just a virtual 'figment of the imagination' right? So how would it be able to grab random code out of the air when a glitch occurs?

It just seems to me not to be in line with at least what we know from the other Matrix storylines, because there was no real way the 'inhabitants' of the Matrix were hinted at it's existence, right?

I'm confused

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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:58 am

Ehsan
Entrenched

Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992

Worker wrote:

Code:

20031031172955 - October 31, 2003 17:29:55

<communication protocol="cg://ara9975.lka18383">
<bootstrap interop="standard" value="true"/>
<interware status="err259"/>
<message type="response"/>
<response type="translocation">
<translocation>
<vector type="polar">
<theta unit="sau" value="84"/>
<psi unit="sau" value="7"/>
<r unit="sdu" value="258"/>
</vector>
<method id="standard"/>
</translocation>
</response>
</communication>

Some speculation:

1) This tells us where IT is headed (translocation).
2) vector type=polar means polar coordinates
3) theta, psi and r give us polar coordinates in a 3-d space
4) "sau" = "standard angular unit"
5) "sdu" = "standard distance unit"
6) method id=standard means he's moving the 'normal' way (walking?)

Now if only I had paid attention in math class and actually know what Polar Coordinates are exactly... Smile

I'm hoping that psi being small means that he's not about to fly up into space or dig into the ground...

Further reading
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/56443.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/EulerAngles.html

The major concern I have is that we don't have a Phi angle, so it is not clear if these are in fact Euler angles. I'm trying to work it out to figure the AI's next location..

We can assume standard unit is miles or kilometers and then go ahead and draw a circle with r =258 from Alabama (that's where beth was right?)

Using xnbomb's line and moving away from redland this would make the it somewhere in Georgia with distance from redland being around 2400, which would could possibly be the location for event 104

Now the angles could confirm this if we disregard Phi and assume initial start of North (although Euler proposed east I think) and calculate Bearing by using theta instead of roll since he is walking not flying, then we get 84 degrees, or 6 degrees above the X axis on a world map. That's almost of IT is moving east, towards Georgia, and then Psi would be pitch to give latitude since we already disregarded bearing, so he's moving to higher ground--I'm not sure if Georgia is higher than Alabama?

Problem is it would not fit on the line.. to get on the line you need Theta to be around 135 (or 45 if you start east).

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:57 am

xnbomb
Unfettered

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 660
Location: J302B S8JDC

Translocation

Code:

If we refer back to this great document that Wix put together that interleaves Beth's description of what occurred along with the data from the PDA, the interpretation that Wix comes up with is that this a relatively small translocation ... the AI man starts walking away (in Beth's words 'he started to leave'). Earlier in the files, when the distance between AI man and the tent was specified, the unit (meters) was also specified ... why not here I wonder?

It's tricky to make sense of any coordinate system without knowing some basic things about it, like the direction of the axes and position of the origin (or in the case of a polar system, the directions of axes and the directions of 0 angles). For an object that is on the surface of the earth (like AI man), polar coordinates probably make the most sense if we interpret them as describing a vector which AI man will travel on away from his current position (unless they are lat/long, a very useful polar coordinate system for expressing positions on the surface of the earth, which seems unlikely, although 84 {or at least -84 in the decimal degrees convention} is a valid longitude for Georgia).

It is reasonable to think that theta is an angle in the x-y horizontal plane (determined by taking the tangent to the surface of the earth at AI man's current position), and psi is in the orthogonal vertical z-plane (so he's going to go uphill or downhill due to the small value of 7). We'd really need a hint about where the 0 value of theta points and whether units increase clockwise or counter-clockwise ... true north/clockwise would be a standard choice for x-y (theta) and positive-upward for z (psi). However, the 0 angle in the x-y plane could be expressed relative to the direction that AI man is facing if the chosen convention expresses the direction of AI man's travel relative to his previous position and facing.

We'd also need to know what their 'standard angular unit' is (assuming we have guessed the meaning of sau properly) ... 360 degrees is a popular choice for the full circle, although 2 pi radians has some preferrable computational properties ... surprising that isn't used since it is fundamental (choose anything else, and you end up converting back to radians as soon as any trig starts flying). Likewise with the 'standard distance unit' that is expressing the magnitude of the vector (which could either be a distance, or perhaps more usefully a velocity expressed as the amount of standard distance units covered in one standard period of time), we'd need to know the units to make any sense of it. You could think of the provided coordinates as heading and speed in a naval analogy (or ... Mr. AI Man, set course bearing 84 mark 7, speed 258) Very Happy

.

Sticking with Wix's interpretation, we have to think the AI man starts moving away at a reasonable rate of speed for something that looks like a person since Beth doesn't mention him suddenly vanishing, sprinting off into the forest, or magically gliding away at a high rate of speed ... the illusion that he is a man is maintained. Since all provided coordinates are whole numbers, whatever units they are, they are sufficiently small increments that we don't see any fractional coordinates ... is AI man's world sufficiently quantized or does he have to make a lot of course corrections if he is going to travel a significant distance?

Ehsan wrote:

We can assume the standard unit is miles or kilometers and then go ahead and draw a circle with r =258 from Alabama (that's where beth was right?)

I sure hope whoever designed this thing uses metric ... it's preferable when you have to convert units and have anything to the right of the decimal point. Smile

I don't believe Beth was still in Alabama for the bats/AI Man incident ... there are some hints in her emails to Katgirl that she moved from Alabama after the horse incident ... but only time will tell (assuming Beth gets a little less cryptic about where she was and actually goes ahead and tells us).

Could this be describing a translocation over a larger distance? Possibly, although because of some of the reasons mentioned related to the angle in the vertical z-plane (differing elevations) and others (curvature of the earth over significant distances), a vector in 3-d polar coordinates to describe a large translocation would not be the most straightforward way to express that sort of thing. One might think that a standard property of the AI man object is that he stands upon the surface of the earth ... so you might not bother with the vertical plane issues and just describe his x-y position and position him with feet on the ground.

If you wanted to use polar coordinates to express a large translocation from one point on the surface of the earth to another, you could use the geographic coordinate system (lat/long, the equatorial plane being the primary plane) to provide the coordinate planes, and could specify relative coordinates. For example, to get from Talladega National Forest (around 86W 33.5N or (-86,33.5) in decimal degree notion) to Red???d, WA (around 122W 47.75N (-122,47.75)) you could use theta=-36 and psi =14.25. I'm not suggesting that's the case here ... just illustrating another kind of polar coordsys application that makes better sense for a large translocation.

Ehsan wrote:

and then Psi would be pitch to give latitude since we already disregarded bearing, so he's moving to higher ground--I'm not sure if Georgia is higher than Alabama?

I'm pretty sure you meant altitude there ... it's easy to switch those first two letters and the meaning Very Happy

As a gross generalization, when you move towards the coast, you tend to go downhill so I'd expect central Alabama to have a higher elevation than coastal Georgia. However, the direction of positive angle was not specified, so a psi of 7 could be a downward angle (well, with appropriately chosen zero angles, directions of increasing angle, angular and distance units, this vector could point in any direction and at any distance or speed ...).

Ehsan wrote:

Problem is it would not fit on the line.. to get on the line you need Theta to be around 135 (or 45 if you start east).

Yeah, I'm not inclined to think this is a big translocation or in the context of the larger paranormal event model, just a way of getting our unable to speak AI man away from Beth. Anyhow, I imagine he doesn't hang out in the woods between events or actually have to travel from one to the next, he probably vanishes when no one is looking and pops up wherever he needs to be later. Why bother drawing something that no one is looking at? If an AI man is projected in the forest and isn't seen by anyone, is he really there? Laughing

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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:48 am
Last edited by xnbomb on Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:59 am; edited 1 time in total

Sunny du Pree
Unfettered

Joined: 01 Jan 2003
Posts: 636
Location: Push, Nevada

I think that there is going to be a FORCED glitch in the matrix in Florida the days of Nov 6th-12 due to the large concentration of ARGers in Orlando Laughing

weee feeel our innner dolpheeen

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Sunny Du Pree
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:54 am

Tian
Boot

Joined: 17 Oct 2003
Posts: 21

XtRaVa wrote:

I wonder if there is a Daedalus, and Icarus in this...daedalus I suspect would be the designer/s (just like in the myth)...but Icarus might be a slightly more innocent party, which has "fallen" for flying to high...or another way to put it...getting to close, and therefore his downfall had to insue...I can hear the name James Avery...all speculatory of course, but the more i think about it...the more it SEEMS to make sense.

Don't you think (as I do) that Icarus and Caesar are similar words? (same number of letters and a lot of common ones).

Back to the *Caesar is Avery's son* theory Wink

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:50 am

XtRaVa
Unfettered

Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 565
Location: Portsmouth, England

Giskard wrote:

Exactly the same way that the guy with Bane could put an envelope in his pocket, go back thru the fone line to the real world, and download the extra data he was carrying onto a computer chip for neo to get hold of.

Its programmed to be able to hold data.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:13 am

Marl64
Unfettered

Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 456
Location: Prisoner of Zion

Code:

Metacortex (if that's who's responsible) are amongst other things a games company. So let's look at it in game terms and forget about geometry for a second.

I'm sure most people will have played 1st person games such as GTA3 and numerous others, where you are immersed in a 3D world (much as our AI is).

Playing those games, I can get about pretty easy, I simply point the mouse in the direction I want to go and set off 'till I get there.

Well these games use polar co-ordinates whether you realise it or not, and it is (on my system) the mouse that is used to define these in terms of two axes - with left/right turning the character and the up/down taking care of looking up and down.

Combine this with a distance and you've pretty much got a description of the AI "translocation"; 2 angles (sau) and a length (sdu).

Strictly speaking you wouldn't need the up/down for just walking around, but it comes in useful if you ever need to climb ladders (which are not in the horizontal plane)

OK I'm not stating anything new, I'm just trying to put it in terms everyone can relate to. Very Happy

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Marl
(There is no spoon, oh wait, there it is)

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:53 am

taniwha
Boot

Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 40

God, I hope the plot doesn't end up being that all our characters are just elements of a virtual game world. Anyone see the Thirteenth Floor?

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:41 pm

Worker
Decorated

Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 233

Marl64 wrote:

Code:

Well these games use polar co-ordinates whether you realise it or not, and it is (on my system) the mouse that is used to define these in terms of two axes - with left/right turning the character and the up/down taking care of looking up and down.

That's what I thought of too, although I wasn't sure if that has anything to do with polar coordinates.

If that's how IT determines direction, then it's probably safe to assume that theta=0 means north, theta=90 means east, etc. and psi>0 means up.

So if we can figure out where IT started 'translocating' from, we can figure out what's 258 kilometers east-north-east of there... (Unless IT was only moving a small amount, as was previously suggested, and IT only moved 258 meters. But I like the idea that this would give us a clue towards the next paranormal event Smile

)

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:09 pm

taniwha
Boot

Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 40

taniwha wrote:

God, I hope the plot doesn't end up being that all our characters are just elements of a virtual game world. Anyone see the Thirteenth Floor?

Building on this line of thought....If the characters are all living in a virtual reality game, what if "The Strange Man" is just one of the programmers trying to patch up holes in the code? You know, taking care of issues like clipping and faulty physics.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:00 pm

Marl64
Unfettered

Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 456
Location: Prisoner of Zion

Worker wrote:

If that's how IT determines direction, then it's probably safe to assume that theta=0 means north, theta=90 means east, etc. and psi>0 means up.

I think degrees is a safe assumption for the unit but I think we have to be carefull with assumptions such as 90 being east.

Two main reasons.

1. Maths or Geography?
It's a while since I did maths, but don't they put zero degrees out to the right? where East would be. And do they count clockwise or anticlockwise?

2. Absolute or Relative
It may not be an absolute reference. One of the main benefits of a Polar co-ordinate system is it makes some of the maths easier, particularly object rotation, which is usually calculated relative to the object.

ie. Not turn TO 258 degrees, but turn BY 258 degrees.

So I think a good thing to determine (or have dropped on our laps Very Happy

) is another example of the co-ordinate system used.

_________________
Marl
(There is no spoon, oh wait, there it is)

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:15 pm

Marauder
Veteran

Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 123

Yes, zero degrees on a coordinate plane would be the equivalent of east, 90 degrees is north, 180 west, 270 south.

But I agree, they seem to be polar coordinates, so everything is relative.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:56 pm

bakntime
Unfettered

Joined: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 462
Location: back in time

Marl64 wrote:

1. Maths or Geography?
It's a while since I did maths, but don't they put zero degrees out to the right? where East would be. And do they count clockwise or anticlockwise?

(I'm a math teacher Mr. Green

)

In polar coordiates, you start "on the right", which if talking about N-S-E-W directions would be due East. That would be 0 degrees. You then go counterclockwise (anticlockwise for our friends in the UK), meaning North is 90 degrees, West is 180, South 270, and back to East (360=0).

As you mention though:

Quote:

Absolute or Relative

This makes a big difference. I'm guessing it would be absolute for this reason: If you wanted to "command" the AI to go somewhere, it would be much easier to say "200 degrees" than to have to first figure out which direction he was facing. To guide a character using an absolute system, all you need to know is "his" position in space, and you could then easily tell him a location to go to. Using a relative system, you would not only need to know where "he" is, but what direction he's facing.

Secondly, designing it so that it's relative to the AI means we can gain very little from knowing the means of navigation, especially because we don't know what direction "AI man" was facing. If I were a PM, I definitely use an absolute navigation system IF I wanted game players to figure out some puzzle or hint based on it.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:04 pm

Ahriman
Boot

Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 45
Location: UK

Giskard wrote:

I always thought that everything in the matrix was programmed to have its own reality - bullets hurt, concrete is hard, computers work and people design and build them. The rules operate there just as they do in our reality. The matrix is the ultimate interactive simulation where, if you like, you can get the necessary chemicals and make virtual paracetamol, or melt your own virtual metal and make virtual swords. A PDA in the matrix is a fully realised program of a PDA that does everything you'd expect from a PDA and, to all intents and puroposes, as long as it is in the matrix, is a PDA. But it also exists in a virtual reality, and is a part of that reality, therefore glitches affect it just as they affect everything else that is part of the matrix code.

I think.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:33 pm

edmnc
Boot

Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 10

Re: Minotaur

yanka wrote:

Now, having realized that "reality" is not limited to the web, Minotaur "escapes" once more, and is now roaming free in the "real" world, which is no more "real" than Labyrinth, for that matter. However, there is a problem - named 259 - he's out of his habitat (which he was made for), thus his functionality is hugely messed up. Maybe his continous attempts to "connect" to homebase interfere with the coding of "reality" and that is what causes the "events".

yanka wrote:

There are many holes in this theory, as far as I see:

I think the biggest problem with this spec. is a rather philosophical one (is that how its spelled?). A mind, that is trapped into a reality, human or not, should not be able to understand that there exists another reality, on top of his/its. I mean if you are raised in a cave, you don' t know that there is anything out there. Some of the texts in thematrix.com philosophy section describe this much better than i can.

Whai I mean is that the only way to wake up would be if someone woke you up, as happened in the movie. Somebody, that is aware of the real world, has to show it to you.

And I think I am hurting my brain by trying to figure out a way how a computer program, even if it realised that it was trapped into a virtual world, could get out of it and influence it.

Another things - about Beths PDA - its also philasophically and logically difficult to see how information from the "real" world got into a device that exists only in the "virtual world". But, there is a possibility - maybe someone that is/has been unplugged (man or machine) is giving her clues? Kinda like Trinity being able to send Knock, knock ... to Neos screen? Hmm ...

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:34 pm

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