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 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC Puzzle Cards - Questions, Meta and Sub-puzzles
Wave 4 Cards - Strange numbers and images on cards
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Jon 79
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Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 9
arnezami wrote:
Maybe the blobs are not part of a bigger shape but are "attached" to a shape. So only one side of every blob contains part of the outline of this "inner shape". So for example the blobs could represent water/sea. And maybe the tiny blob from #040 should be placed inside this inner shape (a little lake? or the city/town/field where the cube is located?).


I like that idea.... Like it's negative space.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:59 pm
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Ashin
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Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 140

 		I think the shapes fit together.

For instance, a slightly enlarged #94 turned 90 degrees counter clockwise fits directly onto the left side of #96.

It also seems like 250 fits into 253 (though I don't have photoshop handy at the moment, so that one is harder to see).

Maybe someone else can follow up on this whilst I continue working 13 hour days.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:29 pm
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arnezami
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Joined: 14 Apr 2006
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Jon 79 wrote:
arnezami wrote:
Maybe the blobs are not part of a bigger shape but are "attached" to a shape. So only one side of every blob contains part of the outline of this "inner shape". So for example the blobs could represent water/sea. And maybe the tiny blob from #040 should be placed inside this inner shape (a little lake? or the city/town/field where the cube is located?).


I like that idea.... Like it's negative space.

Yeah. Maybe what we are seeing are the remains of "cookie cutting":



Or some equivalent of that process of course Wink.

Regards,

arnezami

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:57 am
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sylvastriker
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 7

 		Please be kind this is my first post on this forum. I have been reading it for months but have neglected to register till today.

I don't think that anyone has suggested this, but do any of the strange shapes on the cards fit in any of the dice on card #060. It just seems funny that they have bits missing, and that we have bits distributed around other cards.

That is all for now.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:22 pm
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DarkHuman
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Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 640
Location: Florida

 		Yep. #58 & #60 are ONE piece. The 3, 1, & 6 red dice(attacker), the 6 & 4 blue dice(defender), and the risk guy on horseback.(worth 5 soldiers, if memory serves.)
#40 & #90 have all the info on each card.

oh, and if everyone loses 1 in a tie,
40-defenders loses 2 (army of 2)
58/60-defender loses 1, attacker loses 2 (army of 5)
90-both lose 1. (army of 3)

each card shows 3 dice attacking, (attacking army must be at least 3 strong)-and 2 defending(must be 2 strong)

my best guess is that it goes 58/60>90>40. starting with any army 5 strong attacking. They lose 2, and another 1. Now they are not strong enough to attack for another roll of 3, so the last card must be them defending. (providing that they both start with 5 armies). The origional attackers lose. *and that kiddies the the "great pxc war" Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:54 pm
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themandotcom
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 		Yes, the horse man is 5 armies! But why the heck would someone go through all the trouble to put risk figures in the cards? I think we needa find out who wins each "battle" in the risk game, maybe we can see who has conqured the world! For example, on #90 both the attackers and defenders would lose 1 army, and it looks like the attacker has 3 armies. But with only 3 armies, only 2 dice would be rolled. hmm... strange, maybe we could get some of the PXC minds working on this.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:29 pm
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arnezami
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Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 136

 		Found something again. Smile

So far we have seen very strong relations between the number of the string beginnings/endings and Risk territories/continents. The numbers 14, 9, 7 and 12 have come up and also the numbers 11 and 10. Each of these numbers would either represent the number of territories at the beginning or at the "end" (of a risk game). More importantly since 14 represents all southern territories and 7 all northern (and these are the amount of -1s and -3s respectively) we can fairly safely conclude what all these numbers represent (directions). The same goes for 9 and 12. This is all strengthened by the lack of 24s and 13s in the middle digits.

We've discussed all this by now. And I think its pretty conclusive.

But...

Puzzling enough...

I've found another relation between the numbers 14,9,7,12,11,10 and something that can be seen on the cards. Something completely different. And I'm a bit perplexed by it myself...

(keep in mind that the numbers 14-7 and 9-12 represent each others opposites (and maybe 11-10 too).

Something to ponder over:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Take a real die and lay it in front of you (on the table). And when doing the following make sure you can always see three sides of the die.

Ok. Here we go.

Put the 4 (pips) on top.
Then rotate the die until you see both the 2 and the 6 pips.
You now see 12 pips (and you can see the point where each of these three faces meet).

Look at this point and imagine the point that would be at the exact opposite side of the cube (now lying on the table).
Now turn the die so you are looking at this opposite point.
Which pips do you see?
Exactly: 5, 3 and 1. Which added equals 9 pips.

If you do the same with (6,5,3 =) 14 pips you get (4,2,1=) 7 pips.

And if you do the same with (6,3,2 =) 11 pips you get (5,4,1=) 10 pips.

This is pretty astounding!

Not to mention a die has 21 pips (and two dice have 42 of course).

This could be a coincidence (this all is an intrinsic property of dices because of their 1-6, 2-5, 3-4 setup). Or it could be a coincidence that the risk territories correspond with the string endings (very unlikely though). But there is also a possibility they somehow knew of this relationship between the amount of territories in risk continents (and their relative positions/oppositions) and these characteristics of dices. And they somehow chose to use it. Which would be pretty ingenious.

Either way: I wouldn't throw those dices away just yet Wink.


I've already been thinking about the possible consequences of this find but to be honest its puzzling me. It could even be a fluke of (bad?) luck.

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Among other things I've been thinking the middle digits represent the rolling of dice but what are the .5s then? And how would it all work?


Any ideas?

Regards,

arnezami

PS. Here is another hint... Think about the above (three sides of a cube and stuff) and then do the following:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Factorize 507.

... How deep will the rabbit hole really go? Very Happy

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:17 pm
Last edited by arnezami on Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:32 pm; edited 14 times in total
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jonc
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Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 144
arnezami wrote:
Here is another hint... Think about the above (three sides of a cube and stuff) and then do the following:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Factorize 507.


I agree the sides of the dice thing is interesting. I have been thinking that it's probably something with two opposing sides (like a game).

But dice have 6 sides, so the 1-4 thing (and 0.5) doesn't suggest dice rolling, but suggests 4 directions. But who knows..

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
3 * 13 * 13 ? (slightly confused)


PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:26 pm
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Scribe
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Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 300
Location: Brighton, UK

 		Been silently watching this mostly, just cos I can't make head nor tail of it. But arnezami's observations appeal to me just because it's all kyoob-based.

Going back to ramsfan's numbers:

Quote:
LHS: 11 1's, 11 2's 10 3's and 10 4's
RHS: 14 1's, 9 2's, 7 3's and 12 4's


It does strike me as odd that the 1s and 3s added together on either side each = 21, as do the 2's and 4's added together on either side.

Will let my brain mull it over while I drink beer, but on a tangential sidenote, I've gone and bought and read some more Borges, and am struck by the idea of finite space wrapping around. For example:

1. Mentioned at the end of the 'Library of Babel', the possibility that if you walk far enough in one direction, you get back to where you started.
2. Walking round a sphere.
3. Traversing a die by rotating it in 1 of 2 directions to get to a new face.

Is there any way this could relate to those cat-scratching post designs?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:13 pm
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sylvastriker
Greenhorn

Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 7

 		As a nonsequiter line of thought... my partner look at the numbers, and as a geneticist instantly said it looked like DNA sequence. Maybe way off base but its another line of thought for you to mull over.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:04 am
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jonc
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Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 144
sylvastriker wrote:
Maybe way off base


Please, no more puns.......

I daresay that as a geneticist they are likely to see any string of numbers as base pair sequences.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:18 am
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BBuck
Decorated

Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 184

 		Long post alert. Sorry.

I've continued along the "numbers=risk game" route, and tried to recreate the starting positions. Whilst initially making some progress (North America done), it's now clear that either:

a) the numbers are not related to a risk game
b) I've messed up
c) there's a misprint

Assumption

1: the numbers represent control of the territory at the end of the round.
2: turn order is 1, 2, 3, 4.
3: player 1 (P1) finishes with all of the S America, Africa and Australasia, player 2 (P2) N America, player 3 Europe and player 4 Asia.

If these assumptions are correct, then the numbers cannot represent a risk game. To work it out, I put the numbers into an Excel sheet, split into rounds (there are 24 in all), then focused on North America and player 4. As s/he goes last, then there is no problem about a territory changing hands more than once in a round: ie P1 might take several territories in a chain, but lose all but the last one to P2, 3, or 4. So there's no way of seeing the "route" taken. Whereas if 4 goes last, then no one else has an opportunity to capture before the end of the round.

Code:

A 3-433333334-2
B 2-4111111441-2
C 4-11122221412234-2
D 2-11444444444411111111444-2
E 2-4444433333323-2
F 4-1414411122-2
G 3-2112223-2
H 2-1222323-2
I 1-343-2


So from the above, territories D and C must be "entries" (ie territories bordering another continent) into N America, as there are no P4 territories within the continent on the immediately preceding round at some point.

D can only be Alaska, as the final time P4 captures, on turn 21, s/he only has territories in Asia. So C is either Central America or Greenland.

But C cannot be either Central America or Greenland, as when P4 begins his/her turn on Round 14 (crucially after P1-3), s/he only has territories in Asia. At the end of the turn, s/he has one territory in S America/Africa/Australasia, and one in N America, so there's no "route" that they can take from Asia to get to C America or Greenland without leaving a lot more territories marked.

I've also looked at Same Time Risk, where goes are simultaneous, but this doesn't work either.

Whilst writing, I have thought of one other possibility - that the chains of numbers do not necessarily start at Round 1. The shorter chains might in fact indicate the change of possession of the territory during, say, Rounds 7-12, not 1-6. Will start thinking about this tonight. If this doesn't work though, then either an assumption above is wrong, or this ain't a Risk game. I hope not the latter, as it would be a really neat puzzle and a very fun test of logic, keeping lots of possibilities in the air together until they collapse into one outcome.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:17 am
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jonc
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Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 144

 		Interesting idea, but I would wonder then what to do with essentially a transcript of a risk game...

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:45 am
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BBuck
Decorated

Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 184
jonc wrote:
Interesting idea, but I would wonder then what to do with essentially a transcript of a risk game...


The starting position of the players could indicate a number of things: spell out a word (unlikely) or point to the country in which the Cube is buried (more likely) through arrows of one player's territories, or concentric circles around one territory (a bullseye). Or it could be a more devious form of code.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:01 am
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arnezami
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Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 136

 		@BBuck: really like your approach and your thoroughness. I also believe in trying to work out comprehensive theories and testing them Smile

BBuck wrote:
Whilst writing, I have thought of one other possibility - that the chains of numbers do not necessarily start at Round 1. The shorter chains might in fact indicate the change of possession of the territory during, say, Rounds 7-12, not 1-6. Will start thinking about this tonight. If this doesn't work though, then either an assumption above is wrong, or this ain't a Risk game. I hope not the latter, as it would be a really neat puzzle and a very fun test of logic, keeping lots of possibilities in the air together until they collapse into one outcome.


As for the problem of different number string lengths (which to me also indicates they cannot be memberships of each turn) I posted a "fix" awhile ago:

arnezami wrote:
I've been thinking these strings of numbers maybe depicting ownership of this particular country. The first number is the original owner of the country the last one is the last owner. All in-between numbers would be the owner of the country after each battle on that country (or after another event taking place in that country like a change in army power).

Personally I don't think the middle digits have something to do with Risk (although somebody looking at it with a different perspective is certainly a good idea). But since I have been studying this too I will give my ideas about it. Maybe it will help.

These I believe are the main problems when assuming the middle digits are risk ownerships (including possible fixes to these problems):

  • The lack of 13s and 24s etc in the middle digits. Solution would be two teams working together.
  • The presence of 1-3xxx-xs and x-xxx4-2s etc. This is in sharp contrast with the middle digits. Why would 1 and 3 (or 2 and 4) suddely become enemies at the end (and in the first turn) and not in the middle turns? Doesn't make sense. Solution: all the middle digits strings have to be put between different outer digits pairs. Sort of exchanging these middle strings between the sets of outer digits until there are no x-xxx1-3s and 2-4xxx-xs etc left.
  • The difference between string lengths. This is a biggy. If the middle digits represent ownerships then why do some territories only "report" a few times what the current owner is and why some many times. They can't be only reporting changes it seems since we have long strings of the same owner. And they can't be reporting every turn because many are way too short. Solution: a string gets a new number only if something in its "neighborhood" happens. Possibly if something happens in a set of connected territories (all owned by the same player). For example: one of them changes ownership so your group of territories split in two groups or two groups are merged into one.
  • The .5 numbers. Solution: they could mean "easy win" or "taken whole continent" or something.
  • When trying to fit all of this together there may be more than one possible way of doing it all. Or it may simply be too hard to do. Solution: hope for the best.
  • How would this result in information to be used for the meta puzzles. Solution: it could give a rough geographical location or its some kind of code still to be determined.

Apart from the above problems my main concern with this ownership idea is the fact that the middle numbers really look like directions. And to be honest some of the above solutions/fixes just aren't very convincing (at least much less convincing than the "direction" approach). But I agree that IF they are ownerships then it would be a really nice (and tough!) puzzle to reconstruct the risk game Smile.

BBuck wrote:
Long post alert. Sorry.


The longer the better Very Happy

Regards,

arnezami

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:43 pm
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