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 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC Puzzle Cards - Questions, Meta and Sub-puzzles
Wave 4 Cards - Strange numbers and images on cards
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ramsfan
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Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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Location: holmfirth, yorks

 		I emailed Owen Lyne, whose name comes up when you look for internet advice about risk. He's an academic statistician, so I thought just the person to notice something about the numbers. Unfortunately although he did have a good look, the numbers meant nothing to him.
Agree that the .5 is against the moves/territories idea and fits better with the directions.
Arnezami, I know you've traced the directions. Have you done anything like start the trails at the four cardinal points according to the "starting armies idea" to see if they meet and trace anything? I could do it but I don't want to waste time if you have already, or if you can quickly map your trails in that way. I think I'm clutching at straws rather than suggesting something useful.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:07 pm
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arnezami
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ramsfan wrote:
Arnezami, I know you've traced the directions. Have you done anything like start the trails at the four cardinal points according to the "starting armies idea" to see if they meet and trace anything? I could do it but I don't want to waste time if you have already, or if you can quickly map your trails in that way. I think I'm clutching at straws rather than suggesting something useful.

Not exactly sure what you mean by "four cardinal points" but my analysis of the middle numbers have mainly been directed at possible mazes and stuff. Not so much on risk/real/pxc maps. Hope that answers your question.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:13 pm
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ramsfan
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Location: holmfirth, yorks

 		I was trying to think how the trails you described before could work to produce a location. I had in mind that you could start trails from points N, S, E and W according to the left hand number, and the lines might describe a shape, rather like a string picture. However thinking about it again, this seems a pretty daft idea. I was just clutching at straws.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:14 pm
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PerplexHero
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 		Wiki update
I've updated the wiki with a better all-up view of the Wave 4 markings here: http://perplexcitywiki.com/wiki/Puzzle_card_symbols#Wave_4_Meta_Information.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:25 pm
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arnezami
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 		Re: Wiki update
PerplexHero wrote:
I've updated the wiki with a better all-up view of the Wave 4 markings here: http://perplexcitywiki.com/wiki/Puzzle_card_symbols#Wave_4_Meta_Information.

Looks really good! Smile

Here is the shape for #040:



Here is the shape for #222 (thanks to sixsidedsquare for enhancing btw):



arnezami

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:36 pm
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PerplexHero
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 		Re: Wiki update
Thanks arnezami. I've updated the wiki with those images.

Another Cool Thing(TM) I discovered when buying my Risk game today: In the Mission deck included in the new version of the game (don't know how long this has been in there), there are 4 missions of particular interest:

1. Control North America. Play at the Start of your turn
2. Control Europe. Play at the Start of your turn
3. Control Asia. Play at the End of your turn
4. Control 3 continents. Play at the End of your turn

Could we have some players on missions?

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:15 am
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Ashin
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Joined: 22 Nov 2005
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 		mmmm..... nanners.

This is a totally useless post, but maybe it will spark someone else.

Thought the numbers on 223 might have some meaning from other texts by giving word locations... Some outputs I got:

Quote:
light. threw children, and must held rubies, the amethysts. nothing choice 20 wi
th precious from was the then the light. remained upon the from them Only I is m
ingled the me. are not dug light Precious its you children, must I the and forwa
rd. are ammot Precious my so was But emeralds only right. stones the one

Quote:
she.a.a.the.book,.Harvard.their.authors?.in.the.to.picnic,.murder.character.Can.
story.religious.behind.called.she.discover.find.A.truth.a.leads.at.little.solve.
of.quest.books.a.location..her.In.to.this.a.book,.she.and.of.of.each.she.the.to.
the.friends.her.professor.birthday.of.these.and.him.

Quote:
dreamed Paris a truth little University their authors? to story discover and of
character Can of symbology the in dreamed the way professor behind murder him Ha
rvard she a of leads books girl, location. find In together a a little under and
religious brother's each her the little curatorof their birthday of she the the
se friends to

Quote:
for of at able day discover curatorof a the together of govern-ess Holy Harvard
to all leads bring behind for being car. museum. to the girl, to many of of litt
le of of in shockingly, A her the at day a the quest by professor cart murder im
prisoned The motor dogcart, The victoria, the religious and, dreams

Quote:
for The symbology of On to the curatorof behind to girl, landau, the at in bring
quest able truth for dreams shockingly, Paris being of a him sailor, story prof
essor book, murder the called cart 1) she roof. symbology On way of The of, A vi
ctoria, a 3) Grail. and, travelling museum. dogcart, together of govern-ess litt
le



My favorite was Holy Harvard.

"He was part of that whole..... Yale thing..." lol

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:54 am
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duckiemonster
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Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 554
Location: Oxford, UK

 		I've got an idea that is probably totally off of the wall, but it's worth a go. Can't do it myself as I've not got a full set of wave 4 cards with the shiny markings on them. Fairly certain that someone will have tried it by now.

When you start a game of Risk, you deal out the territories equally. Could someone put all the cards in number order, then deal them into 4 heaps? Just to see if any patterns emerge.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:05 am
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PerplexHero
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duckiemonster wrote:
When you start a game of Risk, you deal out the territories equally. Could someone put all the cards in number order, then deal them into 4 heaps? Just to see if any patterns emerge.

I don't see anything, but I'm kinda bleary.

Hey... here's an interesting thing. On card #040, it's interesting to note that the dice and the number strings are carefully aligned with the upside-down numbers next to the red dice (the attacker in Risk). The right-side-up number is next to the blue defender's dice right below this. The interesting thing is this is the opposite of most of the numbers; I wonder if you're to correlate the upside-down number to the attacker, or the person whose turn it is?

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:02 am
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jonc
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PerplexHero wrote:
I wonder if you're to correlate the upside-down number to the attacker, or the person whose turn it is?


I'm thinking that the fact that the numbers are going in opposite directions suggests 2 players/2 forces against each other.

I think the questions are:

are the middle numbers risk?

If they are, what do the .5s mean?

If they aren't what are they (directions/game?)?

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:08 am
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Bakers_12
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Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 195
Location: Dartford

 		I have only played Risk once so this could be a lot of pants. I think I remember that you could not use a territory to make your army in that territory bigger. If I do remember correctly could the weird numbers show a player doing this?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:10 am
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BBuck
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Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 184
arnezami wrote:

[*]The difference between string lengths. This is a biggy. If the middle digits represent ownerships then why do some territories only "report" a few times what the current owner is and why some many times. They can't be only reporting changes it seems since we have long strings of the same owner. And they can't be reporting every turn because many are way too short. Solution: a string gets a new number only if something in its "neighborhood" happens. Possibly if something happens in a set of connected territories (all owned by the same player). For example: one of them changes ownership so your group of territories split in two groups or two groups are merged into one.


From the beginning of the numbers=risk game theory, I've held that the numbers represent ownership at the end of the round (ie four turns, one per player). The shorter strings are abbreviated so that if there are no more changes of ownership, then there is no repetition of the number of the final owner. The strings which do have repetition (22-2, 3-3 *2, 4-4 *2) could indicate control changes on the final go. The problem here are the three strings that finish 1-1. On the turn order assumed, there's no way that ownership could change.

arnezami wrote:
[list][*]The lack of 13s and 24s etc in the middle digits. Solution would be two teams working together.
[*]The presence of 1-3xxx-xs and x-xxx4-2s etc. This is in sharp contrast with the middle digits. Why would 1 and 3 (or 2 and 4) suddely become enemies at the end (and in the first turn) and not in the middle turns? Doesn't make sense. Solution: all the middle digits strings have to be put between different outer digits pairs. Sort of exchanging these middle strings between the sets of outer digits until there are no x-xxx1-3s and 2-4xxx-xs etc left.


If there are alliances between 1 & 3 and 2 & 4, it would be normal in a game of Risk for them a) not to be formed until the end of the first go, and b) to break down towards the end of the game. But there is also another possibility for the beginning of the game. 1-3 doesn't necessarily mean that player 3 attacked player 1, but could indicate that player 2 attacked player 1, then player 3 attacked player 2. Turn order is key.

arnezami wrote:
[*]The .5 numbers. Solution: they could mean "easy win" or "taken whole continent" or something.


This is a biggy. I can only think that these .5 numbers are an aid given by MC. They are there to highlight certain instances when the territory does change hands twice in a round. 1.5 = P1 & P2, 2.5 = P2 & P3, or P1 & P4, 3.5 = P3 & P4.

arnezami wrote:

Apart from the above problems my main concern with this ownership idea is the fact that the middle numbers really look like directions. And to be honest some of the above solutions/fixes just aren't very convincing (at least much less convincing than the "direction" approach). But I agree that IF they are ownerships then it would be a really nice (and tough!) puzzle to reconstruct the risk game Smile.


Some of the problems above apply to the "direction" approach as well. But my biggest issue with it, is that it seems too easy. This is the £100, 000 puzzle, and should be a challenge. It doesn't follow that this is a transcript of a game of Risk, but that feels more natural to me than anything else, given the pictures of the pieces and dice.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:58 am
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PerplexHero
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 		One of the things bothering me about the middle numbers as directions idea was the lack of a 4.5 (halfway between 4 and 1). In brainstorming with some folks who haven't spent a lot of time on this puzzle yet, they made an excellent point which has not yet been mentioned here. There may very well be a fourth "half" direction here, in the form of simply ".5". Part of me doesn't like this because the ambiguity inherent in every .5 number, but on the other hand it does nicely plug this void.

Spoiler (Rollover to View):

Another thing I'm thinking of lately is that each number string represents a Risk territory. Think:
  • 42 numbers, 42 territories
  • There are 11 numbers with a "1-" or "2-" prefix each and 10 numbers with a "3-" or "4-" prefix. In 4-player risk, 11 territories are owned at the start by players 1 & 2 (each), while 10 are owned by 3 & 4 (each).
  • There are 14, 9, 7, 12 numbers with "1-", "2-", "3-", "4-" suffixes respectively. There are the same numbers of the territories in Australia+Africa+South America, North America, Europe, and Asia, respectively.

If each number string represents a single fixed location on the Risk map, what could the middle numbers represent? Directions troops moved through this territory? Not as a path of a single unit, but the direction a unit departed on each turn, regardless of who owned the unit. Still thinking on this, an answer to which could lead to a method to assign numbers to particular territories.

I'm thinking that after a number is assigned to a particular territory, you can draw a line between the 2 territories on each card to reveal something important.


-PerplexHero

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:51 am
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jonc
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PerplexHero wrote:
(Says some stuff)


If you read the thread, you may surprised to find that the majority of this has been covered/speculated.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:20 am
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arnezami
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PerplexHero wrote:
One of the things bothering me about the middle numbers as directions idea was the lack of a 4.5 (halfway between 4 and 1). In brainstorming with some folks who haven't spent a lot of time on this puzzle yet, they made an excellent point which has not yet been mentioned here. There may very well be a fourth "half" direction here, in the form of simply ".5". Part of me doesn't like this because the ambiguity inherent in every .5 number, but on the other hand it does nicely plug this void.

Great thinking! Smile This in fact just might solve some of the problems I've been facing regarding the paths. Although it could become more ambiguious. On the other hand (with this new idea in mind) its also possible there are no diagonals at all and the .5 is just a special number (like standing still) even though the 1-4 are directions. For example: in a #254 ESCAPE context standing still and having no diagonals makes much more sense...

PerplexHero wrote:
... but the direction a unit departed on each turn, regardless of who owned the unit.


Interesting too. Not sure if this specific interpretation of the numbers has been mentioned yet. But thanks for expressing your ideas here Wink.

Regards,

arnezami

[EDIT] PS. I've attached the ppt-file (with all the paths in it) without the diagonals. Now it sort of makes more sense to me Smile.
no_diagonals.zip
 Description   
 Filesize   19.39KB
    278 Time(s)

Unfortunately, this file is no longer in our archives.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:53 am
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