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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Catching the Wish (CTW2) » CTW2: Quick Ref, Questions, and Meta
[Question] Runestones' Meanings
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Citizen Kane
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 		[Question] Runestones' Meanings
Has anybody been working on the meanings of the Runestones?


I've looked everywhere I could think of but I just can't find these symbols.
Just the Futhark alphabet.
Anyone have any better luck?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:06 pm
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Sylvia
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 		I tried too CK, but no luck.

Here is a good site to look up symbols for those who want it:

http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/01/index.html

And just in case here is a good site for ancient script, alphabet.

http://www.ancientscripts.com/greek.html

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:48 pm
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kimer
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 		I tried searching the CTW1 files and archive... don't have much time to spend on this.... but from my 'recall' the symbols were on 'missing manuscript pages'..... see this file: http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/files/266_1061690295.jpg

of interest to that page is also note the similarity to Marzant logo and some other information that can be found here: http://www.llull.org/tfig.htm

How this all will be brought into CTW2 is, I believe, unclear at this time Wink So not sure how much help this is in your quest for 'meaning'.... Embarassed
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:16 pm
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Sylvia
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 		Good job kimer. I'm going to post that image here just for reference.
And do a work up from the lull.org page to see if we can come up with a meaning.
And just for reference the images are from this post
http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=244729
which discusses the the find of marzent.com and their logo.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:35 pm
Last edited by Sylvia on Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sylvia
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 		For reference here is the stuff from http://www.llull.org/tfig.htm
Quote:
The second figure consists in three triangles, namely difference, concordance, contrariety etc. as shown. Above the angles of difference, concordance and contrariety, the terms "sensual and sensual", "sensual and intellectual" and "intellectual and intellectual" are written to signify the difference that exists between some sensual beings and others, like one body and another, and between sensual and intellectual beings like the body and soul, and between some intellectual beings and others like God and angels. And the same applies to concordance and contrariety.

Above the angle of beginning (iniziare), the terms "cause", "quantity" and "time" are written. "Cause" stands for substantial principles, namely efficient, material, formal and final. Quantity and time signify accidental principles like the nine predicates and other similar things.

Above the angle of the middle (il mezzo) the terms "conjunction", "measure" and "extremes" are written and they signify three species of medium, namely the medium of conjunction, the medium of measure and the medium between extremes. A medium of conjunction is, for instance, a nail that joins two boards. A medium of measure is like the center of a circle, equally distant from every point of the circumference. A medium between extremes is like a line between two points.

Above the angle of the end (la fine), the terms "privation", "termination" and "perfection" (or final cause) are written to denote three species of end. The end of privation is like death that puts an end to life. The end of termination is like the boundary of a kingdom or a field. The end of perfection or final cause is like God who is the cause and end of all things.

Above the angles of majority (maggiore), equality (uguale) and minority (il minore) are written the terms "between substance and substance", meaning that one substance is greater than another, like human substance is greater in goodness, virtue, etc. than the substance of stones. "Between substance and accident" means that substance is greater than accident: for instance, the substance of man is greater than his quantity etc. And "between accident and accident" means that some accidents are greater than others: for instance, understanding is greater than sensing; and the same can be said in its own way about minority in opposition to majority. And there is equality between one substance and another: for instance, men and stones equally belong to the genus of substance. And there is equality between one accident and another, for instance understanding and loving equally belong to the genus of accidents. And there is equality between substance and accident: for instance, quantity and its substantial subject are equal in extension and surface.

The green triangle consisting of difference (differire), concordance (la concordia) and contrariety (contra) is general to all things because everything in existence has some difference, concordance or contrariety. Whatever exists is implicitly contained in this triangle. Difference is more general than concordance and contrariety because more things can be different than concordant or contrary, like Peter and Martin who differ numerically and belong to the same species, but with contrary moral characters, as one is just and the other is unjust, and so forth.

Difference causes plurality and concordance causes unity: whereas difference distinguishes one thing from another, concordance unites several things into one, and contrariety corrupts and dissolves things. And as the green triangle is found in all natural subjects, so the intellect discourses mentally by discerning and conserving the three said species of difference, concordance and contrariety while descending and ascending through them. The intellect is simply and objectively general with difference as well as with concordance and contrariety; but when it focuses on the ladder formed by the three species, it is neither altogether general nor altogether specific, as when we say "between sensual and sensual," etc. But when it mentally focuses on individuals, it is altogether particular.

The red triangle consisting of beginning, middle and end is general to all things because it contains everything, since everything in existence is in the beginning, middle, or end so that nothing can exist without these terms. A beginning, or principle is something followed by everything else. There is no way that a universal principle can exist, be it natural or moral, unless it includes within itself its own intrinsic active principle, passive principle and functional principle. Now heat cannot naturally exist without the heater with its heatable and their heating; and likewise a principle cannot naturally exist without its three natural intrinsic principles. The artist must know that the three intrinsic correlatives of each universal principle are its essence's own subjective causal properties, and he must know how to distinguish these essential correlatives from the morally acquired accidental ones. Causal principles are necessary whereas accidental ones are contingent and meant for well being. In this way, the artist must ascend and descend from the universal to the particular and back.

The middle, or medium, like the beginning, is universal: an agent always begins with the beginning, then mediates through the medium whereby it joins together distinct entities into one compound or mixture.

Acts are measured with the medium of measurement, for instance: the intellect measures its act of understanding situated in the middle between the intellective and its intelligible, in the same way that a seer measures his act of seeing, or a producer measures his act of production, or a judge his act of judgment.

The middle of extremes implies essence and continuity: goodness, for instance, is a simple essence that stands in the middle between greatness and duration and contains its own intrinsic act of bonifying in the middle between the bonifier and the bonified, where all three are one undivided goodness, which is not the case with moral goodness.

These three species of the middle, or medium are a ladder on which the intellect ascends and descends as it investigates the middle in things.

Likewise, with the end, the efficient cause brings things to repose in the ultimate terminus, but they can find no consummation at all in a privative terminus that deprives them. And in the end of termination, disparate beings repose in disparate ways. This kind of investigation is very useful and a light for the intellect to grasp the final purpose of things.

In the saffron triangle we understand that there is one universal majority above all particular majorities. With majority, agents do major things just as they begin things with the beginning, and the same applies to equality and minority. Substantial goodness and other substantial principles are associated with majority, whereas accidental goodness, etc. are associated with minority. The intrinsic bonifier (active goodness), bonified (passive goodness) and bonifying (act of goodness) in substantial goodness are essentially equal and the same applies to intellect and will, and also to igneity (essential fire), etc. as well as to the equality of causal and moral accidents. The intellect ascends and descends through these three species to grasp the truth about things generally related to majority, equality and minority in substance and accident. This ascent and descent is a powerful artificial technique for acquiring science.

We have described the second figure as the intellect's instrument for working with the first figure because it distinguishes between goodness and greatness etc. with difference and matches them in concordance and proceeds likewise with the other principles, each in its own way. Further, with difference, the intellect distinguishes between the bonifier, bonified and bonifying in the essence of goodness and with concordance it matches them and finds that they are identical in essence naturally but not morally since moral difference is not innate, but acquired from contingent principles.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:06 pm
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Sylvia
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 		And here is the manuscript page with the stones in place.

Go here for to see how the stones align with the cartouches from Sarah's mask "Sacred"
http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=270931#270931
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:38 pm
Last edited by Sylvia on Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sylvia
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 		Updated the above image to show the letters and added this note to get your attention, as I have noticed that updates sometimes go unseen because they dont't show up as new content.
And not that it means anything but here are the associated letters for the cartouches from Sarah's mask "Sacred"
Code:

  F     H C
  D      I
  K      B
  E      G

And here they are by their meaning:
Code:

  Middle    Major   Concord
  Contra         Equal
  Minor          Differ
  Begin          End


PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:18 pm
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Sandra
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 		The runes were also associated with the nine Archetypes as described by Jung. I can't find anything on this right now in the Archives but will search my correspondence for the game for something. I know we had either the illustrations above or something similar with the stones and their identy as archetypes. Will see if I can find out something.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:48 pm
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Sylvia
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 		On that note here is some stuff about Jung and the archetypes, but this is only 8 need to find one more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype
Quote:
Jungian archetypes

The use of psychological archetypes was advanced by Carl Jung in c. 1919 and generally adopted in the social sciences. In Jung's psychological framework, archetypes are innate, universal prototypes for ideas and may be used to interpret observations. A group of memories and interpretations associated with an archetype are a complex, e.g. a mother complex associated with the mother archetype. Jung treated the archetypes as psychological organs, analogous to physical ones in that both are morphological givens that arose through evolution.

Jung listed four main forms of archetypes:

* The Self
* The Shadow
* The Anima
* The Animus

Symbols of the unconscious abound in Jungian psychology:

* The Syzygy ("Divine Couple"), e.g. Aeons
* The Child, e.g. Linus van Pelt
* The Übermensch ("Superman", the Omnipotent) e.g. The Joker, Iago
* The Hero, e.g. Siegfried, Batman, Beowulf, Doc Savage, Luke Skywalker and Matrix's Neo.
* The Great Mother, either good or terrible, e.g. Devi (MahaDevi), the Great Goddess, Glinda the Good Witch of the North
* The Wise old man, e.g. Merlin, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Gandalf, Albus Dumbledore, Mazer Rackham and Mr. Miyagi
* The Trickster or Ape, e.g. Reynard, Robin Goodfellow, Br'er Rabbit, Bart Simpson, Bugs Bunny, Ferris Bueller, and Loki
* The Puer Aeternus (Latin for "eternal boy"), e.g. Peter Pan


From this I can see some similarities, for example
The Child could equal Meaghan
The Great Mother could equal Grandmother Roman talks about or Diana
The Wise Old Man could equal Digitalis
The Puer Areternus could equal Peter from mysterytown.com

Also found this interesting: from Shadow (psychology)
Quote:
The shadow might be the basis of the rank of Corax (raven) in the ancient religion of Mithraism.


Also found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram but don't know if it has anything to do with all this but there are 9. You will have to follow the link to see the symbols, it's too much to copy here unless it becomes important.

I found a couple more archetypes but they don't make sense, to me anyways, in the overall scheme.
From here http://psych.eiu.edu/spencer/Jung.html
Quote:
Archetype of "The Way": Life is seen in many cultures as a step-by step experience. The 8 steps to Nirvana; Christ: "I am the Way", holy pilgrimages, even drug trips.

Archetype of Rebirth: Long before Christianity, the ancient Greek cults baptized members to be "born again". Also, concept of reincarnation, seasons (in Spring, life comes from death).


Once again here is a site that explains archetypes with more layman terms: http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/jung.html

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:20 pm
Last edited by Sylvia on Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sandra
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 		I found the link on the recap of CTW1 to the archetypes we were dealing with back then:

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/

My rune corresponds to 5 which on the above site is listed as The Investigator but on another was referred to as The Observer.

On the page I took this info from is also some comments by Sarah about the nine archetypes. The best way to find this is to search the page for "archetypes."

http://www.varin.org/ctw/Guide/august.html

Once again, I don't know if the same theories are going to hold true in this part of CTW, but I do know that we were supposed to learn more about each archetype.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:46 pm
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Sylvia
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 		Okay now I see. The reference to Jung is what threw me off.
The Enneagrams are personality types and were not not coined by Jung.
They are not the same but they do compliment each other.

Still though, I don't see how the symbols relate to the Enneagrams.
The symbols from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram don't look like the symbols on the stones, to me anyway.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:08 pm
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Sylvia
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 		Okay found the reference

Sandra wrote:
On the page I took this info from is also some comments by Sarah about the nine archetypes. The best way to find this is to search the page for "archetypes."

http://www.varin.org/ctw/Guide/august.html


And this is what it said:
Quote:
Passion found a few sites about the enneagram pattern which the stones are laid out in on the http://www.smalldene.com/sm.html page.

A diagram of the Enneagram Personality types:

http://www.enneagram-edge.com/aahearrowslarge.gif.

There's another page that describes the Archetypes at:

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/.

Each player's stone and the Enneagram Archetype it matches up with:

1 - ALH1213 - The Perfectionist

2 - LazarusLong - The Helper

3 - - The Performer

4 - y2kbozo - The Royal Family

5 - Passion/Sandra - The Observer

6 - Diandra - The Questioner

7 - Tartanwolf - The Optimist

8 - - The Boss

9 - Sunny - The Peacemaker


So an image of the stones was found on the smalldene site laid out in the shape of the Enneagram Figure, which explains the association.
Now if I can find the stones or some info from ctw archive we can better understand the symbols.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:44 pm
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drizjr
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 		CTW1 stones inventory
This post ; "Stones Inventory", from the archives, may be helpful.
Thanks to Shelina. Smile

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:23 pm
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Sylvia
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 		Tried to make sense of what was in the archives about the stones and the Enneagram but without the original enneagram image with the layout of the stones I drew my on over the manuscript page and numbered them according to the enneagram. So look up the number on the image below and compare it to the meanings below.

I don't necessarily agree with the Enneagram being laid out in that unusual way, equilateral triangles make more sense to me.

The first image below is of the Ennegram with the stones laid out like they were mentioned in the archives but I couldn't find info for positions 3, 8 and 9.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram
Quote:
The nine types of the Enneagram are often given names that indicate some of their more distinctive characteristics. Such names are insufficient to capture the complexities and nuances of the types, which require study to understand in their depth. Common brief descriptions of the Enneatypes are as follows:


One: Reformer, Critic, Perfectionist - This type focuses on integrity. Ones can be wise, discerning and inspiring in their quest for the truth. They also tend to dissociate themselves from their flaws or what they believe are flaws (such as negative emotions) and can become hypocritical and hyper-critical of others, seeking the illusion of virtue to hide their own vices. The One's greatest fear is to be flawed, and their ultimate goal is perfection. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the One is Anger, while the One's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Perfection. Under stress, Ones express qualities of the Four, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Seven.


Two: Helper, Giver, Caretaker - Twos, at their best, are compassionate, thoughtful and astonishingly generous; they can also be prone to passive-aggressive behavior, clinginess and manipulation. Twos want, above all, to be loved and needed and fear being unworthy of love. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the Two is Pride, while the Two's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Will. Under stress, Twos express qualities of the Eight, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Four.

Three: Achiever, Performer, Succeeder - Highly adaptable and changeable. Some walk the world with confidence and unstinting authenticity; others wear a series of public masks, acting the way they think will bring them approval and losing track of their true self. Threes are motivated by the need to succeed and to be seen as successful. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the Three is Deceit, while the Three's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Law. Under stress, Threes express qualities of the Nine, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Six.


Four: Romantic, Individualist, Artist - Driven by a desire to understand themselves and find a place in the world, they often fear that they have no identity or personal significance. Fours embrace individualism and are often profoundly creative and intuitive. However, they have a habit of withdrawing to internalize, searching desperately inside themselves for something they never find and creating a spiral of depression. The angsty musician or tortured artist is often a stereotypical Four. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the Four is Envy, while the Four's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Origin. Under stress, Fours express qualities of the Two, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the One.


Five: Observer, Thinker, Investigator - Fives are motivated by the desire to understand the world around them, specifically in terms of facts. Believing they are only worth what they contribute, Fives have learned to withdraw, to watch with keen eyes and speak only when they can shake the world with their observations. Sometimes they do just that. Often, instead, they withdraw from the world, becoming reclusive hermits and fending off social contact with abrasive cynicism. Fives fear incompetency or uselessness and want to be capable and knowledgeable above all else. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the Five is Avarice, while the Five's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Omniscience. Under stress, Fives express qualities of the Seven, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Eight.


Six: Loyalist, Devil's Advocate, Defender - Sixes long for stability above all else. They exhibit unwavering loyalty and responsibility, but once crossed, they are not quick to trust again. They are prone to extreme anxiety and passive-aggressive behavior. Their greatest fear is to lack support and guidance. There are two types of sixes, phobic and counterphobic. Phobic sixes will have a tendency to run from or hide from what they fear, while a counterphobic six is more likely to attack or confront said fear. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the Six is Cowardice, while the Six's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Faith and Strength. Under stress, Sixes express qualities of the Three, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Nine.


Seven: Enthusiast, Adventurer, Materialist, Epicure - Sevens flit from one activity to another with all the energy and enthusiasm of the Puer Aeternus. At their best, they embrace life for its varied joys and wonders and truly live in the moment; but at their worst they dash frantically from one new experience to another, being too scared of disappointment to enjoy what they have. Sevens fear being unable to provide for themselves or to experience the life in all of its richness. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the Seven is Gluttony, while the Seven's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Wisdom, Work, and Plan. Under stress, Sevens express qualities of the One, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Five.


Eight: Leader, Protector, Challenger - Eights are motivated by justice and the desire to be in the right. They worry about self-protection and control. They are natural leaders, who can be capable and passionate or dictatorially manipulative, ruthless, and willing to destroy anything in their way. Eights seek control over their own life and their own destiny and fear being harmed or controlled by others. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the Eight is Lust, while the Eight's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Truth. Under stress, Eights express qualities of the Five, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Two.


Nine: Mediator, Peacemaker, Preservationist - Nines are ruled by their empathy. At their best they are perceptive, receptive, gentle, calming and at peace with the world. On the other hand, they prefer to dissociate from conflicts and indifferently go along with others' wishes or simply withdraw, acting via inaction. They fear the conflict caused by their ability to simultaneously understand opposing points of view and seek peace of mind above all else. The corresponding "deadly sin" of the Nine is Sloth, while the Nine's "holy idea" or essence is Holy Love. Under stress, Nines express qualities of the Six, and when flourishing, they express qualities of the Three.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:01 am
Last edited by Sylvia on Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Shelina
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 		Remember that in one of the last Simon mails he already talked about arquetypes, maybe all this info could be helful in a near future Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:44 am
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