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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » Old News & Rumors
[BOOK] Cathy's Book - Sean Stewart and Jordan Weisman
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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Quote:
It's quite distressing to me to see that most of you really can't be bothered with concern over our kids, and how there's virtually no place left for them to go anymore where they aren't barraged with messages telling them to buybuybuy


Actually, those commercials that run before the previews to the movie even starts bother me a great deal. I've been trying to find a good way to get them stopped, but haven't been able to.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:30 pm
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Rolerbe
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thebruce wrote:
Secondly, they're not "hey go buy this", as above, they're passive references to products.

Sorry, but Cover Girl would not request specific reference changes nor "lend its support" (as barter in lieu of cash) if they felt there was no "hey, go buy this" impact. That would be reading too little into the selection of products to place, and asking too much of Cover Girl.

thebruce wrote:
Fifth, perhaps in the future some time, there will be a book that's funded by some brand name or product as advertising for it. But that time isn't now.


Sadly (yes that's an editorial comment), there have been books specifically funded by some brand name or product as advertising for it. Some are referenced by the ad watchdog group link earlier in this thread.

The point of my original protest posting appears moot. The great hue and cry is barely a whimper from an isolated few. Consumers will only get what they demand and apparently don't collectively demand this level of integrity. Time to move on to other battles...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:34 pm
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kmduke
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 		Throwing in my 2.

Quote:
Hey, kids

I'm 35 thank you.

Quote:
It's quite distressing to me to see that most of you really can't be bothered with concern over our kids, and how there's virtually no place left for them to go anymore where they aren't barraged with messages telling them to buybuybuy.

I have no children, but if I did I would take on the responsibility of teaching my kids about the "dangers" of the world and not expect anyone else to concern themselves over it, if more parents actually took responsibility for their children and not expect society to do it we might just live in a better world.

Quote:
I am very entranced with the notion of ARGs, but not with the fact that most of them are glorified commercials. I'm sorry, Sean Stewart, but a commercial is not an "art form," unless consumerism is the only thing that defines our lives.

Advertising is an art form. The people who create the pieces are artists, the product is by and large irrelevant. Do you think some of the Old Masters actually liked all of their clients? Or that they did work for, at that time, all "good" people.

Quote:
It's also telling that it's two MALES in their 30s-40s are pushing cosmetics, and by extension beauty standards, on young teenage girls. It starts to sound vaguely predatory to me, especially considering the condescending way the book addresses its potential audience on the 42 site. ("Cathy's Book speaks teen (omg!)") The fact that a 42 member is a former branding staffer for Procter & Gamble is also telling as well.

Telling of what? I don't seem to understand what this is "telling" of. That the ARG uses advertising? That it is targeted at the intended viewing audience? Would you rather there be placement for a granola bar? Would that make you feel better?

Quote:
I'd refer you to the excellent PBS Frontline series "The Merchants Of Cool" or Alissa Quart's "Branded" for a deeper analysis on the issues. If you're a youth marketing or advertising type, this sort of argument is basically the enemy. But I think it spells out a code of ethics that I feel are sorely lacking in the ARG world and the machinations of its pioneers.

Designers require money, coders require money, bandwidth requires money, server space requires money, printers require money, all of these things require computers, that aren't free, along with software, that also isn't free. These people must work in a space, which isn't free and they must eat, the only thing involved with the production that doesn't require money, yet, is breathing. For the nominal fee of $12.21, via Amazon, you can join in on a cross media adventure. Some ARG's are completely free to play. If you want quality someone has to pay for it, us the players, the creators, or advertisers. You speak of the evils of advertising, to me what is worse is that everyone wants quality, yet they aren't willing to pay the price for it.

Sorry to go on such a soapbox rant but I stopped smoking, so Raspberry

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:41 pm
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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 		Expletives deleted
impboy wrote:
It's quite distressing to me to see that most of you really can't be bothered with concern over our kids, and how there's virtually no place left for them to go anymore where they aren't barraged with messages telling them to buybuybuy.

You appear to have fallen into the same trap that Commercial Alert did: assuming that the book is now nothing but a commercial for Cover Girl, without actually reading it first. Even the harshest critics of Cathy's Book admit that the story was fully written before the authors struck their "product placement" deal with Cover Girl. This is not a big advertisement for Cover Girl's products disguised as a book; it's a real book.

impboy wrote:
I am very entranced with the notion of ARGs, but not with the fact that most of them are glorified commercials. I'm sorry, Sean Stewart, but a commercial is not an "art form," unless consumerism is the only thing that defines our lives.

Pardon my impertinence, but have you ever actually participated in a 42 ARG? If not, may I respectfully suggest that you might, for example, read this and look at this and listen to this and read this and watch this and read this. Then come back and tell us whether you still think that an ARG by definition can never have any artistic value. (Please do keep in mind that every single one of these comes from an ARG whose sole reason for existence was to advertise some product.)

impboy wrote:
(think about it: would you have trusted Judy Blume as much if Sheila The Great was little more than a fictional spokesperson for Pepsi?)

See above re: assumption-without-reading trap. Cathy is not a spokesperson for Cover Girl. Did you overlook the fact that this book was fully written before there were any references to Cover Girl whatsoever?

impboy wrote:
It's also telling that it's two MALES in their 30s-40s are pushing cosmetics, and by extension beauty standards, on young teenage girls. It starts to sound vaguely predatory to me

Predatory?

Predatory?

/me raises hackles

Once again, did you completely miss the fact that they wrote the book first, and replaced other references with Cover Girl references only after Cover Girl offered them free publicity? I hate to break it to you, but females do wear makeup out in the real world. I fail to see how an author who has a female protagonist wear makeup thereby becomes "predatory," regardless of whether the makeup has a brand name.

Or perhaps you object to adult males writing a story about a young female protagonist at all, regardless of whether it contains product placement. So, is J.K. Rowling preying on teenage boys because she's written books about them? What about Ludwig Bemelmans, author of the Madeline books with a much younger heroine? The Oz books, by L. Frank Baum? Roald Dahl's Matilda?

impboy wrote:
The fact that a 42 member is a former branding staffer for Procter & Gamble is also telling as well.

What, exactly, does it "tell"? Joe DiNunzio also used to work for Disney. [unnecesary sarcasm]Wait... Disney made Alice In Wonderland into a movie, and everyone knows that Charles Dodgson was really just a pedophile! Now I see your point![/unnecessary sarcasm]

Read. The. Book. Then you might have a basis for talking about whether it's predatory or artistic or purely commercial or good for kids or bad for kids. Until then, you make about as much sense to me as every other person in history who wanted a book burned without reading it first.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:50 pm
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ScarpeGrosse
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Rolerbe wrote:
The point of my original protest posting appears moot. The great hue and cry is barely a whimper from an isolated few. Consumers will only get what they demand and apparently don't collectively demand this level of integrity. Time to move on to other battles...


The point of this thread (and these forums) is to spawn discussion of relevant topics. Discussion can take many forms, and can usually be found to be two-sided. Hence, by extension, this means not everyone will agree with your opinion, but everyone is entitled to express their opinion.

For myself, I have read Stewart's work before. I've experienced the magic of the entertainment Stewart, Weisman et al have created with I Love Bees, LCP, and Hex168. Because of my knowledge of the quality work these two produce, I'm betting that Cathy's Book will be of similar quality and provide an entertaining experience that I can recommend to others. Working in a bookstore, I see what teen girls are reading, and I just *have* to believe that there's more contemporary teen literature out there with more worth than the titles girls are picking up, like "The Clique," "The Gossip Girls," and my perennial favorite for worst title and subject matter "Still Sheisty." Could Cathy's Book fill that hole and engage girls with subject matter that goes deeper than skinniness, diets, sex, drugs, and peer pressure to fit in? Wow, do I hope so.

Now, the question as to whether "Cover Girl" being inserted in place of "Clinique" (yes, remember, it did originally WITHOUT PROMOTION say "Clinique" and referenced a makeup product. Because the characters ARE 20-something girls. Who wear makeup. I'm wearing Bare Escentuals Loose Powder SPF 20 in Fairly Light which I purchased at Sephora.com) somehow will deteriorate the quality of the narrative is still up in the air for me. My *guess* is "no," but it's still merely a guess.

Why is it still merely a guess? Because I have not yet had the opportunity to actually read the book and come to a conclusive decision based on the book's merits and my feelings towards them and not what the Media Watchdogs are feeding me.

I don't feel as if reserving judgement because of an inability to properly assess the material somehow means I lack integrity or do not demand quality. I believe it means quite the reverse.

Please refrain from stating that those of us holding out on judgement or betting that the book will still be of utmost quality due to the known affiliations of the authors to be "kids," lacking integrity, idiotic, or unconcerned. Those are faulty arguments that are inflammatory and usually untrue and have no place in a discussion.

EDIT - added urls
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:00 pm
Last edited by ScarpeGrosse on Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
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impboy wrote:
It's quite distressing to me to see that most of you really can't be bothered with concern over our kids

Won't somebody please think of the children?
Sorry had to be said (see here for where it comes from)

Please don't take this as a flame, it was just so beautifully hyperbolic I had to comment. Any point I would have made has been made above.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:32 pm
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Rolerbe
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ScarpeGrosse wrote:
The point of this thread (and these forums) is to spawn discussion of relevant topics. Discussion can take many forms, and can usually be found to be two-sided. Hence, by extension, this means not everyone will agree with your opinion, but everyone is entitled to express their opinion.


My point was that a sample size seems to have been achieved sufficient to assess the general population of concern or lack thereof. The opinions on this particular topic also appear to be even more highly polarized than some of our other 'great debates'. The argumentation now is shedding little light and only heat (yes, IMHO).

I don't need to be told that everyone is entitled to air their opinions, you over-read my opinion/comment. I do try to be careful not to be disrespectful or preachy. If I over-implied, I apologize. For those who wish it, have at it!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:50 pm
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kmduke
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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 		Went to Borders at lunch today, they gave me mid October as a release date for the book. Amazon said the 12th but the page still says unavailable. Anyone have it order on Amazon yet and heard any word, I'm dying to read all these great makeup tips that have been causing such the uproar. (note that last bit was, attempted, humor)

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:07 pm
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Silverkun
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Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA

 		CURSE YOU COVER GIRL!

Sorry. Needed a scapegoat.

Just came across the game today and will see if I can't get my sister-in-law hooked on the game so I don't look like a goober chasing down a Young Teen book ARG so I can expand her horizons...Wink

-R
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:23 pm
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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 		Re: delayed release
kmduke wrote:
Went to Borders at lunch today, they gave me mid October as a release date for the book. Amazon said the 12th but the page still says unavailable.

New press that, among other things, lists "Oct. 11" as the national release date.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:51 am
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ixalon
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Silverkun wrote:
Just came across the game today and will see if I can't get my sister-in-law hooked on the game so I don't look like a goober chasing down a Young Teen book ARG so I can expand her horizons...Wink


My girlfriend *IS* getting this book (if she likes it or not) in an attempt to get her interesting in ARGs Wink

Stewart & Weisman must be loving this controversy - look at all the free publicity they're getting for a little bit of product placement.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:54 am
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thebruce
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Rolerbe wrote:
Sorry, but Cover Girl would not request specific reference changes nor "lend its support" (as barter in lieu of cash) if they felt there was no "hey, go buy this" impact. That would be reading too little into the selection of products to place, and asking too much of Cover Girl.

I think the point has been clearly made numerous times that that statement is quite wrong. The books were written, the generic products already in the story; the only change now being references to a specific product rather than a generic one. You can't debate that point.

You can debate, however, your personal opinion about the actual intrusiveness of the products, after you've read the book. Until then, by all means, continue to share your opinions about what we do know Wink

Rolerbe wrote:
Sadly (yes that's an editorial comment), there have been books specifically funded by some brand name or product as advertising for it. Some are referenced by the ad watchdog group link earlier in this thread.

true. But the point being that this is obviously the first of its kind, raising such a ruckus in the media. In the past, the answers were clear. In this case, it seems the timing of the sponsorship is essentially what's causing the controversy. Is it the same as previous commercialized novels? Or is this really a non-issue because of the believed artistic merit and integrity of the authors?

We shall see, when the book is released, how well Stewart and Weisman. maintained the integrity of the novel. And there will be outcries, again, from both sides of the fence. I say, sit back and enjoy the read and the experience. If you're concerned, voice it to whatever degree you like. That's everyone's right.

I for one, will happily own the novel, and hope it lives up to our expectation Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:56 am
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Rolerbe
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thebruce wrote:
Rolerbe wrote:
Sorry, but Cover Girl would not request specific reference changes nor "lend its support" (as barter in lieu of cash) if they felt there was no "hey, go buy this" impact. That would be reading too little into the selection of products to place, and asking too much of Cover Girl.

I think the point has been clearly made numerous times that that statement is quite wrong. The books were written, the generic products already in the story; the only change now being references to a specific product rather than a generic one. You can't debate that point.


I think our respective arguments are missing each other a bit. I don't debate that the books were written, then changed, etc. I do contend that Cover Girl would not request the specific change, or provide 'consideration' for such changes as anything other than straight marketing/advertising intent.

I'm personally not offended in the least that they wrote in a real product for the intent of realism. That's authors privilege and adds context, etc., etc. as I've argued before. [standard caveat]In my admittedly not-so-humble personal opinion [/standard caveat] I take a dim view of ad-men in the creative tent. What next? Should they get co-author credits?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:23 pm
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konamouse
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 		Entertainment Weekly Review
Favorabley A- - by Jennifer Armstrong.
Here is a scan from my subscription (hope the copyright police don't get angry).
scan0007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:51 am
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Arana
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 		E-mail from Amazon on 10/1/2006:

Quote:
The following items have been shipped to you by Amazon.com:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Qty Item Price Shipped Subtotal
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Cathy's Book: If Found Cal... $11.67 1 $11.67


Whoo-hoo! Here we go!
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:25 pm
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