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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » ARG: Lonelygirl15 / OpAphid
[META] Where are the Unfictioners watching Cassie?
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randomtrickpony
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Joined: 25 Sep 2006
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Location: Iceworld of Hoth

 		Hmmm...it's always interesting to hear those that I also talk to in the LG15 forum talk about the CiW stuff over here, because they say such different things. Being that I've done the ARG thing a couple times before, I honestly have to say I am a bit impressed with the CiW PM in some respects. I loved the video start that it made, kinda "Ring"ish in my opinion, but none-the-less rather good. I saw Cu Roi say that he disliked the use of murder footage. And though it is tasteless...so is the nightly news. It's all tasteless, if it bleeds it leads, that's just what happens.

My opinion is still out on the possible connection for LG canon-nis though. I've been waffling, but more toward legitimacy lately

Yes, the board did get a little out of hand, but that was only because so many people are playing the game. Not many ARGs are played on such a scale. It makes it difficult for moderation sometimes, and mods are human. Their effort has been superhuman in my opinion, and the board was cleaned up nicely.

Lastly...what's so wrong with newbies? I mean, I know explaining stuff to them gets a little annoying, but a lot of them catch on rather quick! And besides, without them where would the next generation of new gamers come from, eh? Remember that we were all once newbies with a lot of stupid questions (heck, I still have some n00bish ones), and we really would have wanted someone nice to come along and help us out, because most of them really do want to help.

Anywho...that's all for tonight!

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:50 am
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wintermute740
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Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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theShaggy wrote:
It wasn't you specifically that I was attacking, but the reactionary stance of the board to assume that Manson's confirmed presence in a CiW canon video was an invalid clue because it made some kids cover their eyes.


I know you're not attacking me (that's why I used a smiley). Yes, the stance does seem silly. However, the same topic comes up and typically gets deleted. Which means it comes up again and gets deleted again. Rinse. Repeat. By jokingly suggesting the trout, I was suggesting that the topic has been discussed to death. By suggesting the thread be locked, I was hoping that the thread would be left in place so new people coming to the board would know. Otherwise, they probably would have just deleted the thread, and the topic would have come up a dozen more times since then, and been deleted a dozen more times. I just think it's wiser to have it in public that it's off-limits rather than have an unspoken rule that gets broken every time someone new comes along.

'mute

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:06 am
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redheaddiva
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: Texas

 		 a meta question here...
from a noob, of course...
While we're on the topic of n00b questions...

What keeps coming up for me (a n00b) is this question:

In a game where narrative elaboration is encouraged, and where fanfic is invited to become part of that narrative, what is the difference between a "gamejack" and someone's genuine attempt to participate in narrative? (This looks at things from the assumption that LG15 and CiW are probably linked, which I know is controversial, but I think it still applies if LG15 is supposed to be an ARG in and of itself.)

I keep hearing cries of "Gamejack!" and "That's not canon!" on the other boards, part of which (I think) comes from trying to make sense of so many different attempts to participate in story-building. It gets confusing, especially when it seems that there are lots of interesting (if not always well-executed) participatory elements out there that players are using to build on the "canon."

Now, I understand that if someone is deliberately trying to drop misleading "Cassie" clues (e.g. ebay Cassie or MS Cassie), or screw with players by sending fake "Frank" email or trolling the boards, that's one thing. Not good.

But what if someone decided to take on the character of LG Cassie (rather than CiW Cassie) and make a blog or video as (or about) this character as a way of responding to the Creators invitation to "play along?" (Maybe someone already has... I can't keep track anymore.) Is that a gamejack, or does it become part of the canon via the Creators' invitation to help create the narrative? (ETA: Please do not read this as an intention to do so... this is entirely hypothetical.) And if the Creators aren't going to respond to/incorporate these participatory elements, what is the point of inviting them in the first place?

In other words, although I appreciate the open narrative structure offerred by the Creators and think that this is an interesting concept, haven't they shot themselves in the foot as PMs by doing this? How can you control a game (in this case, solving a mystery) when you've invited everyone to add to its narrative?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:36 am
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ardiente
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Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 104
Location: London

 		Re: a meta question here...
from a noob, of course...
redheaddiva wrote:
While we're on the topic of n00b questions...


I think that's a very incisive question, not n00bish at all. I've only just started hanging about round here myself, but I get the impression that most veterans are bit non-plussed by LG15 and everything surrounding it. It doesn't play by ARG conventions.

I'm keeping an objective distance from the whole thing, precisely because of all the contradictions, but also because thats the best seat in the house as far as I can see. On the question of what is canon, and what isn't, my answer is, "I don't care." Without all the gamejacking spinoffs & wotchumacallits, there isn't much of a show.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:14 am
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Phaedra
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 		Bunch o' stuff.

wintermute740 wrote:
That was my quote, and taken entirely out of context. Wanna quote me cross-board? Let me know so I can defend my position


Okay -- what everyone does on other boards, obviously, is their own business. But here we try to keep trouting gentle -- it is, after all, intended to be a term of respect. So 'round here at least, Use It For Good And Never For Ill, okay? Smile

TheShaggy wrote:
And the statement was still pretty clear: "You mention Manson, you get trouted and the thread gets locked." It wasn't you specifically that I was attacking, but the reactionary stance of the board to assume that Manson's confirmed presence in a CiW canon video was an invalid clue because it made some kids cover their eyes.


Okay, just because this seems like an appropriate time to remind people of this:

UF doesn't censor content unless it's spam or violates the Terms of Service, but in courtesy to your fellow players, if you're dealing with an image that may be disturbing to others, rather than posting it here, please provide a link to it instead.

randomtrickpony wrote:
Lastly...what's so wrong with newbies? I mean, I know explaining stuff to them gets a little annoying, but a lot of them catch on rather quick! And besides, without them where would the next generation of new gamers come from, eh? Remember that we were all once newbies with a lot of stupid questions (heck, I still have some n00bish ones), and we really would have wanted someone nice to come along and help us out, because most of them really do want to help.


Dunno if this is in reference to the other boards or here, but just in case:

Nothing is wrong with newbies. We love newbies. HI NEWBIES!!! Very Happy

The only time our love wavers a little is when they break the TOS or post without Searching first.

redheaddiva wrote:
In other words, although I appreciate the open narrative structure offerred by the Creators and think that this is an interesting concept, haven't they shot themselves in the foot as PMs by doing this? How can you control a game (in this case, solving a mystery) when you've invited everyone to add to its narrative?


The difference between a gamejack and participating in an open narrative structure, I think, depends on whether the PMs want it to happen. A gamejack is, essentially, an attempt to wrest control from the PMs in a way contrary to that in which they've invited the audience to participate (by pretending to be an in-game character, by pretending to be the PMs, etc.).

That said, the question of whether the PMs of this particular game have shot themselves in the foot is a separate issue, I think. Smile

I'd say yes. There are plenty of ways to invite people to participate in story creation without completely abdicating control of your story, which appears to be what is happening here. You can control the parts of the story to which you invite people to add, you can control the time in which you let them participate in story creation and so on.

There are all sorts of factors that you can open up individually to allow audience participation, without flinging all the doors wide open. So right now, it doesn't look like a wise move to me. But in retrospect, I don't know -- maybe it'll turn out okay.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:44 am
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Nos
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Joined: 29 Jun 2005
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Phaedra wrote:


Dunno if this is in reference to the other boards or here, but just in case:

Nothing is wrong with newbies. We love newbies. HI NEWBIES!!! Very Happy

The only time our love wavers a little is when they break the TOS or post without Searching first.


I would like to second the newbie love. We've always welcomed new blood (heh) around here. I was a newbie myself not to long ago, and I remember how awesome it was to find a place that people wouldn't just roll their eyes and ignore you if you had questions.

The reasons newbies are SO welcome when it comes to ARGs? There is always that one little, tiny thing that you will know that no one else does. ARGing is about the community; there is no winning (I have no idea where some of the more uh...trollish newbies over at LG15 got that idea), but someday, during some game, you will be the key to solving a difficult puzzle. It's just how it works.

Of course, this is all my opinon. Hee. And most of you know that I have never come down on a newbie over there. I am always willing to answer questions and the like. New people=new inerest in the genre we all know and love, so it makes very little sense to hate on newbies, right?

Now the trolls over there...They aren't worth our time.

And yes, you are gunna see more seasoned argers shying away from this. Why? Because clues can't be trusted at this point. Things seems to be getting back on track, but for awhile there it was pure chaos, I am sure everyone will agree.

Aaand I've rambled enough.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:06 am
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wintermute740
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Phaedra wrote:
Okay -- what everyone does on other boards, obviously, is their own business. But here we try to keep trouting gentle -- it is, after all, intended to be a term of respect. So 'round here at least, Use It For Good And Never For Ill, okay? Smile


My point was that it's not exactly polite to quote someone in a place where they have no chance to defend themselves, and has nothing to do with the trout itself... Beside, if trout is a term of respect, then a truckload of trout is a truckload of respect Very Happy There was never any disrespect towards the poster, and I even PM'ed him to make sure he knew there was no disrespect meant. I don't know how much more respect I was meant to give the person. If anyone wants to discuss it further, PM me on either board so we don't waste more pixel space than we already have Smile

'mute (would someone please make the voices in my head stop?!?!)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:12 am
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redheaddiva
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Phaedra wrote:
There are plenty of ways to invite people to participate in story creation without completely abdicating control of your story, which appears to be what is happening here. You can control the parts of the story to which you invite people to add, you can control the time in which you let them participate in story creation and so on.

There are all sorts of factors that you can open up individually to allow audience participation, without flinging all the doors wide open. So right now, it doesn't look like a wise move to me. But in retrospect, I don't know -- maybe it'll turn out okay.


Thanks for your thoughts (all of you)... I think that this is what I'm getting at. It seems to me that, aside from true gamjacking, either:

a) The LG15 folks did not set enough guidelines for particpation, which is leading to chaos and a "no clue can be trusted" state of affairs; or

b) The LG15 fans are seeing an open field for participation when there really isn't one, which is leading to chaos and a "no clue can be trusted" state of affairs.

I'm doing more watching than playing right now. I got started thinking "New narrative forms! Multiple voices! Yea!" But now I'm just confounded by all the noise. And also, there's this pesky "work" thing that keeps getting in the way...

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:35 am
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Phaedra
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ardiente wrote:
I get the impression that most veterans are bit non-plussed by LG15 and everything surrounding it. It doesn't play by ARG conventions.


This is OT a bit, but...

<sigh>

Every time a game comes along for which the veterans don't jump on board en masse, there's some variation of this comment.

"Oh, they just don't like it because it's New And Different TM !"

That may be the reason in some cases, but guys...

It's not like we sit here confined to Unfiction all day in an ivory tower where there only ARGs which follow rigidly defined rules.

We visit the same sites anyone else visits and are exposed to the same different media. Plus, a lot of us play and enjoy plenty of things that share characteristics with ARGs but aren't ARGs -- puzzle trails, video games (we even have separate sections for those two genres here, because they're Other Things that enough of the membership enjoys that it seems justified to host discussion about them here), etc. I've heard it argued pretty strongly that The Lost Experience isn't an ARG, but plenty of veterans played and enjoyed it.

The idea that the "veterans" as a group avoid a game just because it doesn't follow ARG conventions is just...silly. If "veteran" players aren't particularly interested in a game, I'd look elsewhere for reasons.

That said, if it floats your boat, play it, enjoy it, and don't worry about where the veterans are. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:40 am
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krystyn
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 		I think the most recent posts, for me, have clarified why I am not as interested in this ARG-ish thing as I could be:

I am seeing much (MUCH) more interest being taken in the meta aspects of what's happening, than the actual content being generated in-game.

I enjoy meta discussion, but the fact that it's so easily pulling people away from the admittedly generic "creepy" blog posts by Frank and the endless Morse codes ... it's pretty telling that the 'story' here is less compelling than the mechanics.

Not very immersive, to me.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:42 am
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RPGgame
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 		When it comes to this veteran the only way i would know about a game taking place is if I got a notice in my inbox at the start of all games somehow. That is the only way I would trickle back here. So if someone wants to create some sort of system I'd sign up for that!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:49 am
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Phaedra
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RPGgame wrote:
When it comes to this veteran the only way i would know about a game taking place is if I got a notice in my inbox at the start of all games somehow. That is the only way I would trickle back here. So if someone wants to create some sort of system I'd sign up for that!


Why, golly gee! The benevolent folks over at ARGN have heard your plea!

Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:52 am
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redheaddiva
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 		Krystyn:

Don't go by me... I'm usually more interested in the meta aspects of anything. Too much grad school, I think. Smile

I think you're absolutely right, though. When the meta becomes more compelling to lots of people than the actual story, maybe the story isn't all it could be.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:54 am
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Phaedra
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redheaddiva wrote:
Don't go by me... I'm usually more interested in the meta aspects of anything. Too much grad school, I think. Smile


I trust you've discovered UF's META forum? </enabler>
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:58 am
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Nos
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krystyn wrote:
I think the most recent posts, for me, have clarified why I am not as interested in this ARG-ish thing as I could be:

I am seeing much (MUCH) more interest being taken in the meta aspects of what's happening, than the actual content being generated in-game.

I enjoy meta discussion, but the fact that it's so easily pulling people away from the admittedly generic "creepy" blog posts by Frank and the endless Morse codes ... it's pretty telling that the 'story' here is less compelling than the mechanics.

Not very immersive, to me.


I think Krystyn nailed it pretty much here. I don't know how often I've tried to derail people talking more about who is behind the curtain more than the what that person is trying to tell/show us. It's kinda frustrating, but I'm hooked so...eh..
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:03 pm
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