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Spoiler Tags
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imbri
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

 		Spoiler Tags
overused and losing their purpose?
So, spoiler tags. For years this forum operated just fine without them. But now it seems like they're everywhere. Does it seem like they're getting out of hand to anyone else? Are they being rendered pointless because there's good information half (or more) of the time hidden within?

Just this morning I noticed a request to cover a link to an another website (also out of game) because there were spoilers over there. Why would we want to put the link in a spoiler tag? The link, itself, is not a spoiler! It's another out of game website. A warning that it contains spoilers would be sufficient.

But it goes beyond that. I've seen spec covered in that lovely red because OMG! SPEC!

I've also seen new game websites spoiler tagged which, frankly, looks really silly when the url in the post is hidden beneath spoiler tags yet the title of the topic is [NEW SITE] www.newsite.com

This is a collaborative community that works together to uncover mysteries. ARGs are (99.999% of the time) collaborative endeavors that are not meant to be solved alone, so we come together and share what we've learned. We are constantly "spoiling" each other - it's our purpose, it's what we do. So, why are we hiding our discoveries in spoiler tags?

Spoiler tags are, in my opinion, good for only a very few things.

1) puzzle solving process (not the actual solution) - This is the primary purpose of spoiler tags, imo. Hide the exact method used to solve a puzzle. This lets those folks that love to solve puzzles on their own do so. It's not as effective for those super complex need to solve puzzles in a group thing though because, well, that information needs to be shared in order to solve the puzzle. It's also stupid to hide the result of the puzzle in a spoiler tag because, well, we need that information to move forward so we need to share it.

2) Puzzle trails - these are not ARGs and seem to fall under a different method of working through them. People like to give each other hints and those are often spoiled from those that don't want the hints. Though, if you're looking ahead on the forum, aren't you already looking for hints and help and, if not, what are you doing looking ahead - you weak thing you! But some people want hints and not the solution. So, how is one to determine if the whole mess is covered in spoiler tags what's a hint and what's a solution? Why not just spoiler the solution and keep the hints open?

3) TV shows & movies - the classic use for spoiler tags online.

Am I missing something? Do you disagree?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:14 am
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

 		Hear hear.

The only time I can think of where it seems reasonable to spoiler a link that *isn't* an answer to a puzzle in a puzzle trail or whatever is if the name of the link itself contains spoiler information.

www.vaderislukesdad.com or whatever.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:04 am
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		imbri, speak it loud!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:36 am
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imbri
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

 		Here's a perfect and timely example.

Space just got an anonymous tip of an ARG. You can see it for yourself in News & Rumors: here

The second post just says, "interesting...(big chunk o'spoiler)" OMG! interesting?! What's so interesting?! Is it a puzzle? Is it spec? Is it a new website? Is it just pasting in text found on the website?!

Now, brace yourselves, I'm about to spoil it all for you. He found a new website which, if you don't read spoilers, you won't know about. Presumably, that website will be discussed in the next few posts. As it has been spoiler tagged, if I want to write about the content on that website, do I have to use spoiler tags? If not, why must the person that posted it? Where do the spoiler tags stop?

Instead, using the (essentially) the same text that grumpyboy did, wouldn't it be much more useful to say something like:

more useful spoiler tags wrote:
Interesting! Check out the testimonials.
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
capital letters in the one from Frank Dawes spells out MISLEADBYMISSCORINNBLOGGER

leading me to: http://misleadbymisscorinn.blogspot.com/


This way, everyone can be on the same page of the discussion. Rather than having a those that don't read spoilers getting a few posts in and seeing people discussing the content on the blogspot page but having no clue where it came from because it's not on the site originally linked. Those that like puzzles know to look for one. Those that don't or can't figure it out, know exactly where to look for the solution/walkthrough.

I think this illuminates a bit on how/why spoiler tagging everything makes them ineffective. (sorry to use you as an example grumpy! really! it's just that you're so on the ball that you gave me the timely example Smile)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:41 pm
Last edited by imbri on Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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 		<headache>

I've got an idea:

Disable the spoiler tags for a week. See what people actually complain about having spoiled for them.

When the tags are reinstituted, *those* can be the things we agree to spoiler-tag.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:47 pm
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		Spoiler tags
When I see it misused in the forum I'm moderating. I fix it and PM the person explaining that email and spec are not spoiler material. I ask nicely to save it for puzzle solve solutions. Usually the offender responds in a positive manner.

It's also in my "guide to posting" that I put at the beginning of the forum.

It's the young ones/newbies that just need a little training.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:33 pm
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Lovek
Unfettered


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 434

 		Well, some people will complain about anything being spoiled. But disabling for awhile might be a very good idea.

Personally, I think imbri has the ground rules covered well.

So I'd vote that the the tag be disabled for a while (maybe even longer than a week), let everyone get used to not having it at all, then reintroduce it. BUT then kindly inform those who use the tag for unintended purposes to... not do that.

Via PM or whatever.

Sort of a "spoiler tag reboot."
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:40 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
Lovek wrote:
Sort of a "spoiler tag reboot."


Creeeeeepy.

I almost said, "why don't we reboot the spoiler tag, then?" but figured no one would get what I was talking about. Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:41 pm
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Lovek
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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Phaedra wrote:
I almost said, "why don't we reboot the spoiler tag, then?" but figured no one would get what I was talking about. Shocked


Great minds....

Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:08 pm
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GuyIncognito
Decorated


Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 295

 		Re: Spoiler tags
If it came down to it, I'd rather have the spoiler tags (even if they are overused) than not having them at all.

However, since I guess most of the "offenders" are unlikely to read/adhere to posting guidelines or follow discussions in a general META-thread like this, disabling the tags for a while may be one of the few ways to effect a change...although young ones/newbies that join after the spoiler tags are "rebooted" will remain unaffected.

Anyway, I agree with you guys... Clean slate could be the best starting point for strengthening/establishing the guidelines for sensible spoilerizing.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:09 pm
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imbri
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

 		Eh, I don't think we need to go as far as disabling the spoiler tags for a week. Especially as there's so much other stuff going on behind the scenes to finish getting the forums to where they were before. I think it's more just a matter of awareness and setting examples Smile

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:55 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago
Quote:
since I guess most of the "offenders" are unlikely to read/adhere to posting guidelines or follow discussions in a general META-thread like this

Ack. I rather like the notion of 'leading by example,' myself.

Pre-emptively doubting newbies makes me sad. I wonder how some of you all might have felt had you been treated as such when you first found ARGs and got excited about stuff you figured out?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:58 pm
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GuyIncognito
Decorated


Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 295
krystyn wrote:
Pre-emptively doubting newbies makes me sad. I wonder how some of you all might have felt had you been treated as such when you first found ARGs and got excited about stuff you figured out?

I guess I didn't make myself very clear. As far as you're addressing me, I wasn't pre-emptively doubting newbies. (Just because someone has never posted on UnFiction before, doesn't mean they are newbies to anything except posting on UnFiction. So I really wouldn't claim to pre-emptively know anything about "them". Some may be rocket scientists, some may be...whatever...something else.) I'd say I strive to be helpful and patient towards newbies (as well as old-timers...Wink ).

Actually, I was trying to make two points:

1) If people overuse spoiler-tags, it is likely that they don't read posting guidelines. If people don't read posting guidelines, it is likely that they don't follow general forum META-discussions, either.
Therefore, I was just saying, n00b or not, I think the majority of people who overuse spoiler-tags won't be affected by posting guidelines, e.g. as expressed in this thread.

2) Newbies who join after a possible "reboot" won't know it happened, so -again- they won't be directly affected by it.
Therefore, (and I guess we all agree on that) the most important thing would be the setting of examples and raising awareness about the guidelines (and the reasoning behind them). Even more so during & after a possible reboot.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:35 pm
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		I vote for no reboot
People can be "trained" to avoid overuse if given the proper information.
As mods, we can edit and then put a tag about appropriate Spoiler use. Most people, when given this information, do learn.
We just need to use a little patience and be nice with our lessons.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:14 pm
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vpisteve
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
I hates the spoiler tags. My vote is to burn them.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:12 am
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