unforum

[James Stone]

[ANNOUNCEMENT] We got a mention on ARG Pod/Netcast

[AngBa]

I was really hoping that this wouldn't come up...

Some of us were discussing the podcast in the chatroom the other night, and I have to say I was unimpressed. The 'cast' talked about the hot games being played, and all they did (IMO) was briefly review the storyline, then beat down the PM's for how they are running their games.

Now, I will not go into the other games mentioned, as I have only had time to focus on AV - but in their discussion about our game I was offended not only personally, but for the PM's as well.

When the game relaunched last month, in the first few pages of the initial thread some people mentioned that they were disturbed by Doc's first video. OK, that is fine - don't play. End of story. But those of us that continued to follow along have, I believe, had a very good experience. We know the characters, know what to expect from them and honestly the "rude and crass comments" that have been made have been completely in line with the character's development. Sarah went from a sweet assistant to a bloodthirsty demon succubus. Do you expect her to be polite?

Kudos to the PM's for running a great game that landed them at the top of the Hot List on ARGN, they should be proud of that. But, I just wish that it hadn't been discussed by people who have not been involved and obviously just skimmed over the threads here and do not have a complete understanding of the game.

I feel they insulted not only the people behind the curtain, but also the players that are enjoying themselves. The condecending tone that "us players" must sit around watch Saw all day, because "that kind of stuff doesn't bother us" was a bit of a stretch. Personally, I left the theater during Saw because it was a stupid movie. What drew me to the game was that the characters are well thought out, have obviously adapted the game to the players (does anyone really believe that Doc planned on meeting BANANA?) and they have allowed the players to interact however they choose.

The best way I've heard it so far is that the 'review' sounded like it was done by someone who overheard a co-worker talking about a movie he'd seen, and they decided to write a review.

From everything that I have read on the forums here, there is no clear cut definition of what an ARG is, it is what the creators make it. Why people feel the need to voice an opinion about something they are not involved in or know about I will never understand. There are about 15 people here that I would love to hear a review from, as they have followed the game from the beginning, or have caught up once they discovered the game. I would also love to hear from someone that has been lurking and not actively playing. Not from someone who skimmed through posts, didn't read the IM chat logs, nor has ever visited the chatroom we have set up to discuss the game.

Honestly, I was very upset the other night when I heard that - I apologize to everyone in the chatroom for going off like I did, but if I was insulted as a player I can only imagine how the PM's on ALL of the games that were discussed must feel. I also know that I wasn't alone in my opinion.

end of rant.

[LouMac]

I just finished listening to the netcast, and I enjoyed the quick rundown of the ARG "hot list." While the folks didn't give a whole lot of detail about each game, let's not be hasty in our criticism. This was the first installment, and I'm sure it will only get better.

AngBa, I don't think that the comments were meant to insult anyone, especially not players of the game. The authors were just giving their impressions and opinions of what they've seen of the game. In fact, I didn't find their tone condescending at all. They only to comment that gore and that type of visually stunning imagery require a certain audience, and that AV is finding that audience recently, just as Hollywood is finding that audience after a long lapse in gory horror movies.

Your comment that "the best way I've heard it so far is that the 'review' sounded like it was done by someone who overheard a co-worker talking about a movie he'd seen, and they decided to write a review," is pretty accurate. However, Jon specifically prefaces his comments on the game with "from what I've read on the boards." So essentially, he was trying to disseminate information based on others comments. Why is that tactic so egregious? Surely you can't expect someone to play every single game or read every single thread about a game before trying to briefly inform the public.

Anyway, I think Jon, Sean and Brooke should be commended for starting up an ARG netcast. And I'd like to extend the kudos to all of those people who have worked so hard creating and maintaining this community.

[Phaedra]

I'd like to second what Lou said, and add:

ARGN isn't trying (I don't think) to direct its articles to people who are actively playing the game. People who are playing a particular game are "experts" on it, and know more about it than ARGN could possibly say in a short article/podcast segment. The point of an ARGN article or podcast (and again, ARGN editors, please correct me if I'm wrong) is to give people who aren't playing the game an overview.

This can help people decide what they want to play, or just help keep them current with what's going on in ARGland if they don't have time to play at the moment.

So it can't be in-depth: the ARGN writers don't have time to play every game out there, and their audience probably doesn't want an in-depth look. They want a brief overview: what's this game about and what are its distinguishing features? I don't think you can fault them for sounding like they are reporting on what someone else said about it, because that's exactly what they're doing.

And more importantly, it's exactly what they should be doing for their audience.

In addition, I know from experience that researching a game you're not playing can be difficult. People in IRC, even if they mean to be helpful, often don't give you what you need -- if you ask questions about details in the game, you'll get great answers, but if you ask for an overview you often don't get one.

As far as warning people off because of the gore, that's a service I WANT ARGN to provide for me. I am not playing this game because the initial videos turned me off, as did receiving mail from someone who seemed like a dead Nazi. I'd prefer that a service like ARGN warn me about potentially offensive material, rather than having to find out the hard way.

I sorta tuned out during the AV section of the podcast, because it's not a game I'm currently watching particularly avidly, but I don't really recall anything that seemed overly critical of the PMs.

So anyway, I'd say take it with a grain of salt, remember that you are not the target audience here, and if you have constructive suggestions for improvement, send them to ARGN. I'm sure they're happy to get constructive feedback.

Perhaps you should ask if they're planning to do another podcast that mentions AV, and offer to provide them with some interesting information about the game from a player's perspective.

[konamouse]

ARGNetcast is an opinion of the guests/author

[GoodChild]

As someone playing, I want to specifically address this "gore" thing that keeps getting discussed. AV keeps getting described as some sort of bloodfest horror marathon when the only "gore" we've seen is from the intial videos that everyone watched. Since then there haven't been any more videos featuring gore, unless you consider videos of people eating raw fish (aka sushi) to be gore.

I think what most of us found problematic was the description of this arg as some sort of playground for people who like watching distubing images. It's not. It's actually about some boring french doctor and his whore of an assistant. nothing morbid about that.


And just one thing to Ang....i have not had a good experience with this game, i know some of us are just sticking around because we like talking to each other. the PMs of this game have done a poor job of adapting the game to the players. A bunch of us have pointed out that the characters ignore almost everyone playing. The PMs have not changed the way the characters interact with us. they still ignore us.

[AngBa]

[Phaedra]

[ardiente]

Re: ARGNetcast is an opinion of the guests/author

[mycroftxxx]

I havent had a chance to listen to the netcast yet as I'm at work, but from the comment here, the whole thing smells... of opportunity.

Ok, so the writer blew it. It sounds like the summary was based on a cursory reading of the forum postings with a misaprehension about what the game really involves.

So what? This isn't going to be the only netcast, and let me remind my fellow players that we have one week before this game ends, one way or the other. By the time the next `cast comes out, we can get with the PM and put together a good recap and analysis. We can use that time to correct misconceptions about the game. At this point, I would consider this game even more closed to new players than it has been in the past, so being lightly painted with the gorehound brush in the press doesn't really affect anything.

So, we wait until things are over and talk about it the PM and see about submitting a recap/retrospective to the netcast. If nothing else, the mild speciation going on in the ARG genre that this game represents is worthy of a couple minutes airtime.

[AngBa]

I knew I shouldn't have made that post

I will keep my opinions to myself from now on, and continue playing the game.

[LouMac]

Nobody here is villifying you, AngBa. We're offering our opinions to respond to other opinions. No harm done. We're also offering you the opportunity to help make things right by writing your own review as a person who played the game.

UnFiction is one of the best forums on the 'net because we tend to discuss things in a friendly, rational fashion (most of the time) instead of devolving quickly into a flame war. All thoughts and opinions, and respectful responses thereto, are welcomed.

I'm glad you posted, because now the netcast authors have some constructive criticism to take into their next efforts.

[konamouse]

Hey Banana, don't be Angry

[GoodChild]

This is getting ridiculous. The truth of this game is that nothing interesting happens in game. All of the drama and action that happens in this game has been the result of OOG things like this.

Ang, if you keep your opinions to yourself, i'm going to smash your face into your keyboard. AGAIN.

[imbri]

AngBa,

I'm really quite sorry to hear how upset you were by the netcast. And, I want you to know that we are listening and we are looking at both the praise and the criticism. I do not mean to speak for the others that are involved, but I do know that they are listening to and reading what others have to say, just as I am.

The others that have chipped in have pointed out one of our biggest challenges - the audience. ARGs appeal to a lot of people on a different level. There are active players, such as you. Some of those players are deeply involved with a single game and aware of its every nuance. There are other active players that are participating in a number of games and know a lot of the details but not every little bit. There are lurkers who are slightly aware of a number of games but not actively participating in any of them or, perhaps, they're actively lurking in one or two games and quite aware of what's going on but not participating. Then there are a huge number of people interested in the genre that aren't actively playing anything for whatever reason - be it lack of time or interest in any of the current games or the fact that they are developers who follow along with the genre to see trends that might impact their own game development. To be of interest to such a wide range of people is a challenge but, I don't think, an insurmountable one.

In the inaugural netcast, we chose to provide a brief update of the games on the what's hot list. We didn't want to go into deep detail on the games. For one, it would have made the hour long podcast oh so much longer, but for another - most of the ARGNet audience isn't interested in that level of detail. We also wanted to discuss events important to the genre but not part of a specific game. PICNIC was an obvious choice because it was a large event in the Cross Media world and ARGNet (as ARGN) was a network partner. And, some of our observations of the event are of great interest to a portion of the audience.

It has been interesting to read the feedback. Those that are not actively immersed in a game right now (be they players or those interested at a higher meta level) have been very positive. Where we missed and where we've recieved the largest criticism has been with the players that are the most active, involved, and attached to a game. We've heard great things about our general overview (including the fact that we've been both positive and critical about the games) from those that aren't active. From those that are, however, the emphasis has been on the level of criticism including thoughts that we did nothing but criticise every game.

Frankly, that is just not true. I know that I was rather critical of the Ny Takma PMs for asking players to remove information that they have found. It had turned me off of the game, initially. Yet, in researching the game, I realized that there was quite a bit that was worth looking into and I tried to make a point of that. I hope that helps people to not judge a game solely on initial incidents and criticisms.

When it came to AV, yes, we mentioned the photos at the start of the game. Yet, as Lou pointed out, we also talked about how there is an audience for such themes and that it is mirroring trends seen in Hollywood. I do not take this is a negative criticism of the game, even though as I stated, it is not something that interests me. Could we have been a bit more clear on how this shows that the PMs found an aspect that distinguishes them from other ARGs, perhaps. But the fact remains, the initial imagery did turn a number of people away from the game and those that come into the game now and start at the begining with the first threads in the forum would see that. If we blatantly ignored that fact, people may not only have been turned off by the game but also upset that we did not make mention of that fact.

I think that we're at a time in the genre where we can and should be offering more constructive criticism of games. The genre has matured to a point where critical insights are important. This is huge. It is a bit hard to take, especially if it's a game that you are close to or working on. I realize and recognize that fact, both as an occasional active player and a PM. It is especially difficult if you feel the criticism is unfounded or misplaced. And, if so, I think you should speak up and let your voice be heard - so I am glad that you made your rant. Also, ARGNet welcomes reader/listener mail. So, if you want to take your criticism (or praise! praise is good, too! it lets us know what we're doing right) beyond chat and the forums, feel free to do so.

I also realize that you are upset that we were talking about games that we are lurking in and, clearly, not actively playing. Phaedra hit on this a bit and I just want to echo her thoughts. It is just not possible for me to play every game as actively as I might like to. I am a proud lurker. And, like many lurkers out there, when a game interests me and my schedule provides me with the time to get more actively involved, I do. But, like most lurkers (the majority of players in most ARGs), I need help from those that are actively playing the games. We (speaking for lurkers everywhere) need good guides and trails to help us get and stay involved and informed. When preparing for the netcast, I stepped into chat channles and asked for help. I went through forum threads and I read some of the guides and trails. What I found missing so often was a solid player created "story so far" to help give me the basics to know where and how to dig deeper. Honestly, such a tool would do wonders for helping not only those of us that want to spread the word of games that are being played but also help new players get up to speed. So, I ask all you active players out there - please, think of the lurkers! Getting their attention and getting them involved and interested can only help you all as you struggle over a puzzle or plot element. Seriously, help us help you!

That's a lot more than I wanted to say, but there you have it. I just want you to know that we are listening to your feedback. I believe I can speak for the others when I say that we want the netcast to be a solid addition to ARGNet and to represent the interests of the audience - all of the audience. And, speaking at least for myself, I'm sorry that you were so upset by it but I am glad that you felt you could speak your opinion and hope that you continue to do so.

(also, I don't think I need to mention this but probably should - while I think the others involved in the netcast would agree with most if not all of what I said, the post was my own)