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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Deus City » DC: Deus City
[DC][Puzzle][Foo] Hack the feed
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imbri
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Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
djsampson wrote:
Look I know this is a tough ARG to follow, But I don't think they built this ARG for lurkers. I honestly don't think any ARG is made for lurking that's why it is an ARG (alternate reality game) not a book.


Actually, most ARG players are lurkers. Of course the percentage of lurkers depends on the game design. In my corporate training games we did what we could to get everyone to come out of lurkdom a bit, but even then we always still had a few that did nothing but lurk (though their activity in the game was monitored in various ways, so we know that they were following along). In small grassroots games, lurkers probably make up about half of the audience, maybe more. And, in big huge public games, you could get upwards of 80-90% that could be classified as lurkers - now, how actively they're lurking, I dunno. Obsessively following along but not saying anything? A few (that was me during the Beast). Checking in once a week or so? Probably quite a bit. The thing is, they're lurkers and it's really difficult to gauge that figure - even when analyzing server stats and such. So, obviously, those statistics I threw out above are obvious BS, but I think they're probably pretty decent guesses.

Just because you don't think that an ARG is made for lurking doesn't mean that the vast majority of lurkers think that way. And, I think that a good number of the 6477 unfiction guests in the past 24 hours (over 96% of the 6740 total visitors) probably disagree with you.

And, most game designers recognize that they have to attract the lurkers in order to bring in more active players. This isn't true just for ARGs or for games - a number of shoppers browse and research before buying a product be it a book, a game, a movie, a car. In ARGs that browsing is usually checking out the games, reading the posts, maybe going to the guide and catching up on the story. Most people seem to feel more comfortable catching up on things before just jumping in which is something that the ARG community has always encouraged because it improves the signal to noise ratio. Afterall, if people didn't lurk before becoming active participants, every other post would be "omg! I found this website! it's funky looking! what do you guys think?!"

</derail>

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:52 am
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djsampson
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Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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 		You are correct are always alot of lurkers, but the only thing I was trying to say was that without people playing the games there is no advancing the storyline. It becomes nothing more than someone writing a story not an ARG.

Case in point lurking vs. players (lets se what the great Wiki says)

Alternate reality game
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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An alternate reality game (ARG) is a type of game that overlaps the game world with reality, by utilizing real world media, in order to deliver an interactive narrative experience to the players -- a kind of surrealism.

ARGs are typified by involving the players with the story and its characters, by encouraging them to explore the story, solve plot based challenges, and interact with game characters. ARGs can be delivered via websites, email, telephones, or any other means of communication which is readily available to the players.


who wins lurkers or players (both because we all win its an ARG)







And for the record I am really getting tired of this hole debating what is and what isn't. And who can do what when.

PM'S of UF said this forum is OOG and anything on here is for collaboration and information sharing.

PM's of DC said that the players in game don't know about UF and that players can jump sides and do what ever they want that the fun of ARG's

So someone please tell me why this same conversation keeps clogging up the veins of UF.

Less bitching more ARGing
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:03 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
Mindez wrote:
It's a competition, in my eyes, between the two sides. And if we share everything here, there's no point to it any more.


Okay, I keep reading here that the makers of the game are the ones who are trying to create a rift in the community. I don't see anything to support that assertion. I do see players trying to push the issue.

The makers of the game said:

Fundi Games wrote:
2. We don't force you to choose sides. In fact we'd love it if people tried to play both sides, it makes the game more interesting.


It's estimated that for small grassroots games aimed at Unfiction, the active player to lurker ratio is 1:10. For big corporate games that get press outside of Unfiction, the lurker to player ratio is likely much, much higher.

So far, the PMs have said they're not trying to force people to choose sides. They want people to try to play both sides, which means sharing the info.

Why wouldn't they? It's bad for them to drive all the lurkers away, because then they're reduced to a tenth of their player base, and most new players to a game start out by lurking. If they can't catch up easily the community has very little chance to grow. Bringing in new players is important because when a game goes long enough (and the actual "launch" for Deus City is set for 2007, right?) you lose players. You need to be able to bring in new players to replace them.

There have been other games that had "sides" -- ILB had two opposing characters, for which you could choose to support either or play both sides -- but players successfully pretended to be taking sides in-game while continuing to share everything OOG.

So, my point is:

1) The PMs, by their own assertions, are not trying to force you to take sides.

2) Hiding information prevents new people from catching up easily and can lead to a dwindling player base without a steady influx of new players, which I doubt the PMs want.

3) Please, please continue to post all essential information here or on some other universally accessible resource, so that new people can get involved fairly easily. I think the PMs' statement suggests strongly that that's what they want.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:31 pm
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djsampson
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 		Thank you Phaedra, I know that the Brackin side as far as the Myspace page I created everything has been either posted on here first or posted on the Myspace and moved to UF with in minutes.

We have no intention of withholding any information from UF on the Attackin Brackin Myspace. It is just a list of the brackin followers and a list of all reference sites and emails we have received. Unless brackin tells us otherwise. which like Phaedra said the Pm's don't really want. Because they don't what to lose their following. All information will be posted on here because it is so much easier to access this forum than it is for me to host the myspace all day long.

The Myspace is my verson of a wiki page (since I suck at running Wiki), with a little more interaction to it.

As far as the Foo-fighters, Brackin has spys deep with in thier Ranks we get e-mailed everything they get just a little delayed. So they can hide as far away as they want we will get there information and make it public Cool

* feels somewhat like a Hero of the people *
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:43 pm
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Phaedra
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djsampson wrote:
Thank you Phaedra, I know that the Brackin side as far as the Myspace page I created everything has been either posted on here first or posted on the Myspace and moved to UF with in minutes.


Awesome. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:53 pm
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Wang Guantao
Decorated


Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 246

 		Yeah, the MySpace page is just a "Super Secret Treehouse In My Parrent's Backyard" type thing. Everyone knows it's there Wink

It's just to add some AR to the players as I see it. The MySpace page is something that we COULD have used if this was really really real (a bad place but we could have used it), and we definitely discuss all Brackin stuff in the Brackin thread for people to read and ponder.

With one possible exception that I now have to check up on, before posting it (I will post it if it isn't done yet).

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:43 pm
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imbri
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Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

 		Just to derail this further into Metaland...


djsampson wrote:
You are correct are always alot of lurkers, but the only thing I was trying to say was that without people playing the games there is no advancing the storyline. It becomes nothing more than someone writing a story not an ARG.

Case in point lurking vs. players (lets se what the great Wiki says)

An alternate reality game (ARG) is a type of game that overlaps the game world with reality, by utilizing real world media, in order to deliver an interactive narrative experience to the players -- a kind of surrealism.

ARGs are typified by involving the players with the story and its characters, by encouraging them to explore the story, solve plot based challenges, and interact with game characters. ARGs can be delivered via websites, email, telephones, or any other means of communication which is readily available to the players.


I disagree with the idea that there couldn't be an ARG if everyone was a lurker and, honestly, that's in part because I don't want to say that lurkers aren't playing, which you seem to imply.

I wrote about this a bit on Giant Mice in my bit on how ARGs are games. With the Beast, I would have been called a "lurker" - I never once posted on the forums and I only went into IRC a few times. But I always said that I was "playing" when describing the game. I considered myself a player. And I interacted with the world, oh, did I interact. I signed up for the two sides of the story - pro-mecha and pro-meat. I clicked on links and solved (or found) solutions to the puzzles in order to help me find more information. I never once chatted with a character or another player, but it was an interactive experience for me. And, yes, there were people that were posting information and, to them, I'm forever grateful. The posts and resources they created helped me to keep up to speed on what was happening. Did the story change by anything that I did on my own? No.

That doesn't mean that I believe that lurkers lack power over the story or plot. I'll go as far as to say that I believe that an ARG could be created even if not a single person posted their speculation or puzzle solves or have chat or whatever and still be just as interactive and change based on player actions - the websites that they hit and the speed with which they find things could change the way the story is told and progresses - if players seem to respond really well to a website (coming back again and again, digging into it deeper, etc) that could show preference for that subplot and the PMs could add more to it. If they don't get to a certain website iin a certain time, that subplot or character could die or do something drastic or change the world.

This goes into what was talked about in the Netcast - interaction means different things for different people. And, that does relate to the way people interact publicly with the game on spaces such as unfiction.

You ask who wins - the lurkers or the players. With ARGs you tend to get out of it what you put into it. But that doesn't mean that lurkers get back a static unchanging experience that would be nothing more than a book if they weren't involved.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:09 pm
Last edited by imbri on Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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WolfHawk
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 1247
Location: St. Louis

 		<meta>
imbri wrote:
In my corporate training games we did what we could to get everyone to come out of lurkdom a bit, but even then we always still had a few that did nothing but lurk (though their activity in the game was monitored in various ways, so we know that they were following along).


Ok, where do you work and how can I get hired???!!!
<meta>

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:30 pm
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fonograph
Boot


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 55
Location: the future!
Mindez wrote:
And that's the key to this game. This game is **NOT** for people that just want to play casually. And, unfortunately, that is it's downside. It's hard for people to get in, because you do have to join a side, and you have to hide information from the other side. We're not supposed to be discussing things together. Because it's PART OF THE GAME, but because the game creators want to put a rift in the community. I'm perfectly happy to befriend as many Brackins as I want, two of the Brackins at LEAST are friends of mine.


Oh, did you read this in the game manual?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:03 am
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alia
Veteran


Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 81

 		So I was wondering what happened for y'all after you took the psych test?
I took the test and got an e-mail saying i would be contacted again...but it's been 2 days. I've tried going back to see if anything has changed, and it just shows the quiz again.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:06 am
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Wang Guantao
Decorated


Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 246

 		Same same.
And no news on either of the blogs.

Either we missed a spot, or we just have to wait a bit for the next clues.

It does say welcome to Deus City Beta in the E-mail, so I'm thinking this starting bit is just some teaser/warm-up to the real game. Maybe Foo and Brackin join up again, and fight Defence Corp... maybe not. We'll see... hopefully =P

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:40 pm
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WolfHawk
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 		I'm a little upset with myself; when I saw we would be contacted later, I guess I deleted the email with my "score."

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:33 pm
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djsampson
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Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 393
Location: INDY

 		imbri wrote:
Quote:
I disagree with the idea that there couldn't be an ARG if everyone was a lurker and, honestly, that's in part because I don't want to say that lurkers aren't playing, which you seem to imply.


Imbri, my hole point in this is if you are in a game to play it fine. But if you are a lurker complaining about not getting enough information, because you don't want to play the game just watch it, then its nobodies fault but your own. when a game like this asks you to play, then play or you might not get all the info. That to me is like getting a console game and complaining because you don't want to touch the controller.

I am not saying by any means that there is no place for lurking. All I am saying in an interactive game, being interactive gets you more information. To be out of the loop and demand that people post privileged info is pretty ballsy.

I know how UF works I myself have lurked many of times but if I get into a game that I like, I get into it. Not to say that people cant lurk in this game, but this whole stupid debate comes from lurkers who don't want to actually get into the game and want to know everything. Which is what UF is for, so that's fine for this forum. But if we go and create an IG chat room or forum then how can someone demade info from it. Its silly.

I on the other hand have complied with what UF has asked on this game out of caring for what others players (lurkers or players) need. That's why I built the Myspace page and have posted all the info from there onto UF. I am not the bad guy here I have done every aspect of gaming, much like the rest of you here, But I still think its in bad form to try and make others do something they don't have to on this forum.

I really think this argument has hurt more people Ig or OOG than has helped. I have offered my hand to help anyone who had questions and have done all I can do to resolve this issue. I am just really tired of this argument, and have been tediously trying to improve the situation so can we please give this whole argument a break. I am doing all I can here.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:32 am
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imbri
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 		djsampson: my points were more general than specific to this game alone. You stated, "I honestly don't think any ARG is made for lurking that's why it is an ARG (alternate reality game) not a book." and further stated, "that without people playing the games there is no advancing the storyline." (emphasis mine)

I disagree with both of those statements, as I said above, and my disagreement with those statements has nothing to do with any specific ARG, including this one, but everything to do with the fact that they were so generalized and written to imply that was the case of all ARGs.

and, one last bit and then I'll not discuss this any further because, yeah, it's not doing anyone any good.

Quote:
To be out of the loop and demand that people post privileged info is pretty ballsy.


Yes it is ballsy. I agree. But, that is why I disagree with "privileged info" in a game - when you give something to a few people, it creates dissention (as we have seen) and makes it harder for lurkers. It's not a beef against the players, it's a beef against the game design because it intentionally a) divides the audience b) makes it difficult for the audience to grow c) makes it damned near impossible for people to catch up if/when they have to bow out for a few days. Though, if the game designers only want the most active of players that will interact with the characters and be on the ball consistantly through the game run, that's fine. However, they shouldn't then expect there to not be debate from the folk that can't do that (the debate is, essentially the only way to get their voice heard) or expect to have an audience size large enough for critical mass.

And, as players, (I'm not saying this is happening or will be happening here), I think it's also pretty ballsy to not share and then later, when stumped on a puzzle or direction to go in the game, expect/hope/ask the people that you wouldn't share your priveledged information with for help. It mutually assured success to be supporting each other as players and lurkers. Lurkers need players to help catalogue the info for them, players need the lurkers to provide fresh insight when needed. It shouldn't be an antagonistic relationship. (and, going back to the game design - if the game encourages that, again, I have problems with it... it all comes back to design for me Wink).

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:20 am
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Wang Guantao
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Joined: 20 Nov 2006
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 		Lets bitching, more hacking.
Everything is on UF.... move on (all of you Razz)!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:49 pm
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