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 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC: Silver Puzzle Cards
[Puzzle] #243 Silver - Shuffled Part 2 (Read 1st Post!)
Moderators: AnthraX101, bagsbee, BrianEnigma, cassandra, Giskard, lhall, Mikeyj, myf, poozle, RobMagus, xnbomb
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Infernux
Greenhorn

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 3

Marnok.com wrote:
Okay here's what I see.

This solitaire cypher business needs 3 things - a keyword, a deck order, and a message. Am I right?



technically speaking, you don't need a keyword to play solitaire. The point of a using a key is that you start with an initial deck order, and start doing the solitaire transform, but rather then using the top card to find the output card, you use the value of the first letter in your key, and move the card that many cards down in the deck. Once you repeat this for every letter in the key, you are left with your in initial deck ordering. Once you have this, you just play solitaire like normal and use those output cards.

Because of this, to solve this card using a brute-force method, we dont need the key, just need to bruteforce the deck ordering before you do solitiare for the outputs. However, with a normal deck, there are 54 cards, and that means a possible 54! number of different deck configurations. thats like 2.308... X 10^71 different orders, which is a really big number

this is taken directly from Schneier's site:

Quote:
Solitaire is designed to be secure even if the enemy knows how the algorithm works.


I would say that the best way to solve this card is going to be a brute force, either distributed or not. As long as the program checks the output of the cards for keywords like "djinn" and "worm" i think we should be able to solve it.

another way i was thinking of was to guess what the plaintext was, and use that to find our keytream. What i mean is that lets guess that part of the plaintext is, "djinn worm" then we can use B-K=P, where B is the ciphertext and P is the plaintext. We can fit the section of plaintext into every possible section of the ciphertext to determine parts of the keystream. Then all we need is a program that can output the keystream values for he different deck orderings and search for our section of keystream in the keystream's we outputted, using the ones that match we try out the keystreams and hopefully one will work.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:10 pm
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Mindez
Decorated

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 165

Infernux wrote:
I would say that the best way to solve this card is going to be a brute force, either distributed or not. As long as the program checks the output of the cards for keywords like "djinn" and "worm" i think we should be able to solve it.


There was such a program created, for a test. It's source code in C++ is available somewhere on here.

However, it's not going to work. I ran the program for literally 1 second, and got hundreds of results. "DJINN" is too short a word, it's too common, it comes up with a LOT of keys. "Worm", "Sente", and other such words were tried, with the same general output - a HELL of a lot of keys that it would take a lifetime to sort through.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:55 pm
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Infernux
Greenhorn

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 3

let me also remind you that that program was encoded using the passphrase "if entropy wins, outward looks should leave you cold" with an unknown initial deck encoding.

We need to construct one that removes the whole passphrase thing and just works with the deck order directly before solitaire is played for outputs. The program should look for keywords, such as djinn, but also subject the plaintext to frequency tests to see that it matches normal english frequency, to within + or - some %

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:59 am
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Marnok.com
Boot

Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 11

Mindez wrote:


If the words on the side of the deck are the card order, then we have no message to decode. There is no way it's going to be both an order and a message, it would be impossible to set up a puzzle like that.



I'm speculating that the message is short, the 10 characters at the end (or the 10 at the beginning). The big bit is the deck order, the short bits are 1) key and 2) message.

Or, both vanishing parts are message, if indeed we do not need a key to solitaire; or, one part is the key to decipher the deck 108-block, the other is the message which we can subject to solitaire once we have the deck.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:30 am
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naqui
Greenhorn

Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 5

 churchill to ussr
any relationship??

hi all,
yesterday I was reading the newspaper and a famous phrase appeared in front of me. It was: "It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." That was how Winston Churchill described the Soviet Union.
This is very similar to how Guy described the card a few pages ago...
would it be any relationship between the card and churchill or ussr??

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:37 pm
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Marnok.com
Boot

Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 11

That more likely describes the number of steps involved for a solution. It sort of hints that the steps to solution are more apparent than we have been discussing. I still hope to get time over the holidays to investigate, I'm pretty sure there's no need to brute-force this one.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:58 am
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x
Guest


Im sure this is trout material.

"If entropy... ...leave you cold"
The clue message is exactly 52 characters long. Including spaces and the comma. That number is WAY to coincidental. Maybe the message means nothing at all, it might simply be an arrangement of letters that set up a deck order.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:01 pm
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Mindez
Decorated

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 165

x wrote:
Im sure this is trout material.

"If entropy... ...leave you cold"
The clue message is exactly 52 characters long. Including spaces and the comma. That number is WAY to coincidental. Maybe the message means nothing at all, it might simply be an arrangement of letters that set up a deck order.


..It's not way too coincidental.

A deck order is 54 cards. 52 has nothing to do with it.

The 'coincidence' is in the top non-fading string, which is exactly 108 characters (54*2).
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:05 pm
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Marnok.com
Boot

Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 11

Thoughts about the message and anagrams.

Consider it as a crossword style clue.
restating what others have suggested:
"If entropy wins" = anagram alert!
"outward looks" = possible subject of anagram
"should leave you cold" = drop the "U" (you)

So, I have looked for "Outward Looks" phrases which have a "u" in them, in order to drop it. I've found "beauty" and "features" which both match the phrase.

Anagramming "featres" doesn't do much. "beaty" could anagram to "a byte"/"byte a".

I don't know where to take that yet... perhaps a binary operation based on the ascii code of "a" or "A"?

Other interpretations:

There's no "U" to drop, but the solution to the anagram is something related to coldness (leaves you cold).

I've not found an "outward looks" phrase or anagram thereof, nor anagram of "outward looks" / "outward looks should" which relates to coldness in a clear and satisfying way.

Sorry this doesn't really progess toward an answer, just felt the need to share my thinking.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:35 am
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kian
Boot

Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 24

Doesn't our effort deserve a response?

There are 108 non-disappearing letters, and 108 is a very interesting number (besides being 2x54)...
- Hindu deities have 108 names, and there is a type of shuffle called the Hindu shuffle.
- It is the hyperfactorial of 3, i.e., 1^1 x 2^2 x 3^3. I thought this might have something to do with a "cube".
- There are 108 sacred "stars" in chinese astrology.

One interesting type of shuffle is called a "Wash".
- When Garnet "spread the cards out on my table", he was actually performing a wash (or beginner's shuffle).
- WASH is "buried in the phrase" in a very symmetrical way as follows: ifentropywinsoutWArdlooksSHouldleaveyoucold.
This line of thinking seems very promising, but I'm not sure what to make out of it. Anyone know how to model a Wash with an algorithm?

As for brute forcing... I've been trying various crib texts and sliding them along the ciphertext to see where they could possibly fit (again using a genetic algorithm). I was hoping that if I hit on the right words in the right places, it might reveal more plaintext. Any thoughts about the feasibility of this method would be welcome.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:47 pm
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x
Guest


Im just saying 52 "standard" cards in a deck. plus 2 jokers. Yea i know the 108 characters, and the idea that, its 2x 54 cards, 52 standard + 2 jokers.

Im just saying the only pieces of information we are given is two blocks of dissapearing text, one block of "normal" text, and a message. Some think the entropy message is "just a clue". I dont happen to believe this. I think its a passkey of some kind. There is more hidden inside that string of information. And the fact that its 52 characters means something.

i dont have the card personally. Does the message have quotes around it on the card? if so... thats 54 characters.

I felt that was an interesting coincidence i should mention. No one had said it before that i could find. Just searching for meaning in the few things that we are given on this card.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:08 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

Just passing through quickly - but I checked and indeed the phrase does have quotes around it.

Here it is:

"If entropy wins, outward looks should leave you cold."

All punctuation in the above phrase is included - the quotation marks, the comma and the period.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:52 pm
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themandotcom
Veteran


Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Syosset, New York, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe

Re: Doesn't our effort deserve a response?

kian wrote:


As for brute forcing... I've been trying various crib texts and sliding them along the ciphertext to see where they could possibly fit (again using a genetic algorithm). I was hoping that if I hit on the right words in the right places, it might reveal more plaintext. Any thoughts about the feasibility of this method would be welcome.


Would crib digging work with a algorithm like Solitare? The same keystream doesn't repeate, so we don't know the deck order.

Anyways, I was racking my brain over this puzzle, and I was thinking that maybe it has something to do with the Dijinn Jr. that Sente created IG during the last part. Could someone in Viendeburg create it? How about Jake Maine. (This is total SUPER spec)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:11 pm
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kian
Boot

Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 24

themandotcom wrote:
Would crib digging work with a algorithm like Solitare? The same keystream doesn't repeate, so we don't know the deck order.


Let me elaborate...
1. Take some crib text (i.e., suspected plaintext such as "THEDJINNWORM").
2. Choose a position in the ciphertext. Starting with the beginning and sliding all the way through.
3. Use a genetic algorithm to find possible deck orders that produce the crib at that position.
4. Decode the whole thing from that deck order and check for any more feasible plaintext.
5. Repeat 2, until all positions are checked.

The critical assumption is that certain placements would limit possible deck orders. This would probably involve repeated letters in the keystream. And if there are few enough matching deck orders, it might reveal more ciphertext. Though, I might be missing something.

Also, regarding the whispered phrase...
It looks like 53 characters including spaces, comma, and period. Or 55 characters including quotes as well. Is there any reason to exclude the period?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:21 am
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steveramsfan
Guest


the Koran
checking stuff in the koran

I dont know if this has been mentioned before?

Solitare cyphers use the number 53 - either joker gives 53

Chapter 53 in the Koran is called the Star - the only mark on a card in the pack

in google, the "if entropy wins......" sentance comes up as a haika

5 and 7 sylables - 5 x 7 = 35 rearranged 53

looking at chapter 53 verse 35 - "has he the knowledge of the unseen so that he can see?"

including spaces and ? 54 characters

is all this a coincidence?


I know its Christmas Day but this card is now consuming me.

Happy Christmas all!!

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:28 am
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