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 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC: Silver Puzzle Cards
[Puzzle] #243 Silver - Shuffled Part 2 (Read 1st Post!)
Moderators: AnthraX101, bagsbee, BrianEnigma, cassandra, Giskard, lhall, Mikeyj, myf, poozle, RobMagus, xnbomb
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Marnok.com
Boot

Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 11

Re: the Koran
checking stuff in the koran

steveramsfan wrote:


I know its Christmas Day but this card is now consuming me.

Happy Christmas all!!


Have a mince pie and put the telly on! Take a day off and let Shuffled come to you.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:49 am
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AtionSong
Unfettered


Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 352

Something occured to me today. The answer to the number strings were solved based on the answer to "Secret Location", the connection being infered due to the street "Translation Approach" being on the back. Perhaps shuffled involves this in reverse:

The answer to "Shuffled" could be connected to "Roaming Identity", the connection being infered due to "Casino Recor" being on the back.

Roaming Identity contains "otpaaworldtdnia 1.56.29" on the back. I don't know what connection there could be. Perhaps:

O
Ten/Three/Two
P
Ace
Ace
W
O
R
L
D
Ten/Three/Two
D
Nine
I
Ace

And the numbers could indicate card position in an unwrapped deck (The Ace of Spades being first..etc., not sure about the others.)

The letters that are left anagram to "IPOD WORLD". Of course! The cube is burried in Cupertino, California! Laughing

But, anyway, there's my spec.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:10 pm
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Marnok.com
Boot

Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 11

AtionSong wrote:
The answer to "Shuffled" could be connected to "Roaming Identity", the connection being infered due to "Casino Recor" being on the back.

Roaming Identity contains "otpaaworldtdnia 1.56.29" on the back. I don't know what connection there could be.


I don't think we need any other card; we have been told everything we need is in Shuffled. (It fits the story of the card too : this wasn't just a hidden message, it was a message designed to be read, so the recipient should be able to solve it without additional information)

I am pretty convinced that "otpaaworldtdnia" works best as "adaptation" anagrammed around the word "world", as discussed in the "Roaming Identity" thread, so I doubt it has further meanings.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:05 am
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Boomanda
Guest


Now, just a note to people suggesting brute forcing... That might be hard. Of course it would be possible, but it might take a _lot_ of time. First, all the possible keys are 54!. This roughly equals to 2,308436973 * 10^71. Now, suppose a computer can try ten keys and also check the results in some way in just a second. How long time would that computer take to finish checking all the possible keys?

In a single day, it would be able to check 60*60*24*10 keys. (The number of seconds in a day multiplied by 10.) This is 864000 keys. This looks like a lot. Alas, 54! divided by 864000, the number of days the computer would take, gives an equally depressing figure: 2,67180205... * 10^65. Now, keep this figure and say 6,500,000,000 computers (incidentally a number close to the world population) were connected together. We then get 4,110464... * 10^55. Dividing this by 365, the amount of days in a year, gives us the amounts of day-and-night work in years: 1,126154711... * 10^53. This is actually quite a lot of years.

This forces me to think that unless some clever way to reduce the searching space is created, brute forcing this card will be hard. Very hard.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:28 pm
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ABPositive
Boot

Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 35

I don't think this has been mentioned, or if it's even possible since I don't have the cards on me - but with all the risk pieces and risk metapuzzle talk, is there any chance of the solitare cypher being done with a Risk deck? It does have two jokers, but I don't know if it's in any way feasable.

-AB+

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:45 pm
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jaikaiman
Boot


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 55

The pack of cards shown on the puzzle card would say otherwise. I don't believe it has anything to do with the Risk Metapuzzle. Nice thinking though, I personally think its just so simple that we are all missing it!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:32 pm
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Boomanda
Guest


You're probably extremely right. Solitaire is, to date, more or less unbreakable. While there is a slight flaw in it that someone have managed to break it with, that was only done by using vast amounts of ciphertext - no idea exactly how much, but far, FAR more than we can use. This means that a frontal attack on the cipher without any extra information that it is a solitaire cipher would be impossible - unless MC knows some flaw in solitaire that no one else has noticed, and decided to use it for a puzzle card instead of revealing it. (Or they might just be putting up a piece of ciphertext hoping that WE might stumble upon a flaw.) That's quite unlikely, so we need some way of identifying the deck order, or, at the very least, several details about it.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:27 pm
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kian
Boot

Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 24

AtionSong wrote:
Roaming Identity contains "otpaaworldtdnia 1.56.29" on the back. I don't know what connection there could be.

Could the "otp" at the beginning stand for One-Time Pad? And/or could 1.56.29 be a page.line.character index into a book? (Just a thought.)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:15 pm
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Cabbage
Unfettered


Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 320
Location: North-East England, UK

I know this thread and its predecessor are EXTREMELY long, but it has been stated numerous times that Mind Candy have said that we do not need any other card to solve this puzzle.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:10 am
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Marnok.com
Boot

Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 11

Are there any cypher types which might leave the cyphertext looking very much like the plaintext?

Reason I ask it,
Code:
E   O   D   M   F   X   R   U   T   H
E   N   D   O   F   T   R   U   T   H

just change letter 2,4,6 from n,o,t to o,m,x

it's a small straw I'm clutching at, that perhaps the first block is some kind of key to the rest of the puzzle, and in fact barely encrypted at all.

Does the sequence -1,2,-4,0,0 mean anything to anyone? or 0,-1,0,2,0,-4,0,0,0,0.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:45 am
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Stratman
Veteran

Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 81
Location: Kettering UK

Not been looking at this for ages - amazed its not been solved yet!
Had a quick look through and am still struck by (from page 33 and earlier)
Quote:

Various Solitaire implentations are available here:
http://www.schneier.com/solitaire.html
However, it's your job to figure out how the key is buried in the phrase.
Good luck,
Bruce

I am assuming Brice Schneier had by this time seen/heard of/maybe even designed the card himself.
Note he doesnt say your job is to figure out the card order. He is quite specific in what he says we have to do. Of course my assumption that he has knowledge of the card could be wrong, but if so, he is surprisingly specific in his reply.
Well, we only have one phrase....If entropy etc.
Trout if you will, but sometimes a look at what was looked at previously but with a fresh mind has been successful.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:34 am
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Amadeus
Boot

Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 59

x wrote:
Im sure this is trout material.

"If entropy... ...leave you cold"
The clue message is exactly 52 characters long. Including spaces and the comma. That number is WAY to coincidental. Maybe the message means nothing at all, it might simply be an arrangement of letters that set up a deck order.


First post! Very Happy

I finally finished reading all 52 pages (groan!), completed neglected the first post because I simply couldn't be bothered. As I reached the final couple of pages I met a kindred spirit. Finally!

OK, so no, I clearly haven't solved it but a multi-pronged attack is certainly in order. Going on my gut-instinct (which is exactly that mentioned above), I took a pack of playing cards and wrote the phrase sequencially onto each card (using the standard bridge order). I moved it into the "Motor deck" order and performed the Solitaire algorithm whereby any cards with a space or comma on them (although retaining their value) were treated as a joker would be i.e. completely ignored.

This produced the following key:

EWHUN EFCYU UDYSY ALLUW TOUUO
YYIOW TRFOL OESUO YSTHT YRUOA
UALOE UOCOD SIESV OLOVC TWCOS
HSTSV POIDF UUSUO YRDDL DTWOO
SULIO IEK/SY OUAOD SPAOL DDIHL OOA

The slash is the cut-off point between 108 and 128 characters.

Using this to decode the ciphertext gave the following results:

Decoding WBBMC with EWHUN gives RETRO.

This was a promising start but later fizzled out when the next decryption didn't tally. I then decided that perhaps both Ciphertext and Key were shuffled and that RETRO may be in the middle of the message. Trying to think of possible next steps, I decided to try and look for Trojan Horse in the text.

I was shocked to find that decoding ITHPJ using YSTHT gives JANHP.

Making allowances for arithmetical inaccuracy (after all, P is only one letter from O) this gives the partial message:

re Trojan Ho

Sadly, RSE could not be found in my subsequent experiments.

I am currently trying variations so I post this attempt to allow others to use my work and try and find a solution. There are also many possibilities that stem from RETRO and I don't believe I have all of them.

All the best,

Ami.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:28 am
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Amadeus
Boot

Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 59

Also, couldn't the three letters at the end turn out be someone's initials?

Spec.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:30 am
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ariock
Has a Posse


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 762
Location: SF East Bay

Stratman wrote:
amazed its not been solved yet!

Agreed
Stratman wrote:
Had a quick look through and am still struck by
Quote:

Various Solitaire implentations are available here:
http://www.schneier.com/solitaire.html
However, it's your job to figure out how the key is buried in the phrase.
Good luck,
Bruce

I am assuming Brice Schneier had by this time seen/heard of/maybe even designed the card himself.
Note he doesnt say your job is to figure out the card order. He is quite specific in what he says we have to do. Of course my assumption that he has knowledge of the card could be wrong, but if so, he is surprisingly specific in his reply.
Well, we only have one phrase....If entropy etc.
Trout if you will, but sometimes a look at what was looked at previously but with a fresh mind has been successful.

Trout is really only appropriate if you begin to rehash something that's been covered previously, and even THEN, a helpful link to the original discussion is required. As I'm not sure this has been brought up, I'll keep the fish in my pocket.
On the other hand, I do have to disagree with your interpretation of what Mr. Schneier said. The things he is specific about (A link directly to the solitaire cipher page, that a key must be buried in the phrase) point directly toward it being a Solitaire cipher, and that the key is in the phrase. Shocked No, really!
Even if we are GIVEN the key, we still need to know the deck order that the key would be used on. He may be assuming it is a standard Bridge order. It may be that it IS supposed to be a standard deck order. But that order has been TRIED, and many times over. You can try it too.
If you look at http://mikesroom.org/shuffled/decoder.cgi , you will see a program that will take ANY keyword, and encode SEVERAL differently ordered decks, and then decode whatever ciphertext you feed it. One of the decks corresponds to Bruce's standard bridge ordering, and a couple of them correspond to the standard Motor brand card deck ordering.
Using that page, you can plug any keyword you get from the phrase and see if it produces sensical output from whatever code you feed it.
So far, I haven't had any luck. And I'm now trying to use other slightly different deck orders. Of course, you'll all be the second to know if I find anything. (First would be MC Wink )
Good luck, and happy hunting.
_________________
"It says, 'Let's BEE friends'...and there's a picture of a bee!" -Ralph Wiggum
When the Apocalypse comes, it'll be in base64.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:54 pm
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sloth007
Greenhorn


Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 8

Shuffled
Chirality

Hi all,

Although I expect to get roundly trouted here, having only perused the preceding 52 pages, and the 40 odd pages that preceded them, I have noticed (sometime back) something about this card that I do not believe has been mentioned above.
Card #243 Shuffled is unique amongst Perplex City cards for this particular reason… The map on the back is handed. By that I mean if you compare #243 Shuffled with any other PXC card with a map you will find the map is mis-aligned by 180 degrees.

Example: Take #243 Shuffled and any other card that displays a map on the rear. Sit them on a desk, face forward and upright. Then turn each card over in the same direction (either to the left or right). Do you notice something? The map segment on the rear of Shuffled is inverted when compared with all other cards that display a map on the rear. Try it, go through your whole collection, this card is unique.

This has to be significant. However, my attempts at figuring out how have come to naught.

I apologise to all if this has been mentioned before, but in case it has not been, I think it is far too important to keep to myself for fear of a trouting.

ATB Sloth007

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:43 pm
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