Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
 
The time now is Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:01 am
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)
View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Story and Plot, related, but not the same thing...
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
View previous topicView next topic
Page 1 of 1 [13 Posts]  
Author Message
Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA

Story and Plot, related, but not the same thing...

Came across a quote this morning on a blog I was reading that I felt I needed to share.

"Plot is a literary convention. Story is a force of nature."
(--Teresa Nielsen Hayden)

And she's right. What made the Beast so successful was that it wasn't just a plot, it wasn't a simple game, it was a force of nature. The story behind it was so engrossing, so enveloping, and since then, we haven't seen a game with the same engrossing style of writing.

I lament the lack of story in the games that are out there right now. None of them have that sense of story, the depth.

So what can we do as a community to make this work? How do we encourage the writing of a decent piece of interactive fiction?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:19 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar

Didn't you play LockJaw?
_________________
Alternate Reality Gaming
http://www.unfiction.com/


PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:26 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA

SpaceBass wrote:
Didn't you play LockJaw?


read my whole post, Bass, I said I lament the lack of current, active games with Story.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:28 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar

Re: Story and Plot, related, but not the same thing...

Cortana wrote:
What made the Beast so successful was that it wasn't just a plot, it wasn't a simple game, it was a force of nature. The story behind it was so engrossing, so enveloping, and since then, we haven't seen a game with the same engrossing style of writing.

[emphasis added]
Although I didn't play Exocog or CA:OOC, I understand they also had a similarly engrossing style of writing. In the same vein, S4E players were quite entranced by that storyline before it fell over recently.

Honestly, I don't see any way to make what you seem to be asking for happen, except by promoting the good games rather than ignoring them or by creating your own game, if you have the talent.
_________________
Alternate Reality Gaming
http://www.unfiction.com/


PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:28 pm
Last edited by SpaceBass on Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
vpisteve
Asshatministrator


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

I would agree wholeheartedly. The story's the thing. Just like a good film, a successful ARG will have a compelling story, PLUS well-developed characters that you grow to care about.

I mean, just look at the casts of characters alone in The Beast and LockJaw, for instance. Even Majestic worked hard on character development, to their credit (Kendra, where are you??!!). These characters were really brought to life. As a result, the plot became even more important, as you cared about what happened to these characters.

I think PMs would do well to research the relative success of Episodics, for example.

Challenging puzzles are great, and fun, but without a great story and interesting characters, it might as well be just another online puzzle site.

I think some of the upcoming or newly launched games show great promise in this regard: TerraQuest just may be showing the beginnings of a cool plot and some character development, CTW looks well thought out in this regard, too.

It all comes down to holding your audience. IMO, there are many elements needed to successfully do so, but having a good storyline and character development are key.

Any PMs out there want to chime in?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:29 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
 Back to top 
Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA

Re: Story and Plot, related, but not the same thing...

SpaceBass wrote:

Honestly, I don't see any way to make what you seem to be asking for happen, except by promoting the good games rather than ignoring them or by creating your own game, if you have the talent.


Well, since this is meta-land here, why don't we discuss what makes a game engrossing?

Recently, I went over the experieceit.info and read around. I was less than thrilled with the writing. Instead of providing a name for their mysterious character, such as Parsifal Longinius, they gave it a bland single moniker, The Inventor. Something they teach in writing courses is that if you don't catch someone in the first few pages, or with the description on the back cover, often times, they'll put down the book. There was no "hmmm, what's this?" factor.

What creates that factor? Is it Story development? Is it a "this looks cool" factor?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:40 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar

Wow, that's in a excellent question. I don't know if I can answer for people who don't have any prior experience with the genre anymore. It's far easier for me to get into a game now that it was for the first one I found, the Beast. Those sites patently did NOT grab me right off.

The first time I was pointed to them, even knowing there was something odd about them from the link I followed, I just poked around and went "huh, weird," then ignored them for another week or so until I was pointed back again by a different site. That time around, it was finding the Cloudmakers list that sucked me in, not the in-game sites. Once I was in, I certainly got into and engrossed in the story but that wasn't the draw. Is this blasphemy? Shocked

A book is linear. It has a defined beginning and every reader starts at the same place. Even old-school adventure games started off in the same place for each player. Assuming you can write that attention-getting first few lines, you're golden. If the reader has some prior interest in attempting to get into the story whether or not they're immediately caught up (I know quite a few people who will read at least to page 50 of a book before they decide to toss it if it sucks), you can still have success if you at least build something intriguing fairly quickly.

Is there even a way to do that with a fictional entity that can have multiple starting points, or where people can stumble in to the middle and pass right by the eye-catching bits? Perhaps this means that an ARG has to be just as intriguing throughout as a book is in that first-line hook. Or maybe in an ARG you should attempt to lead the reader as quickly as possible to a community that will help build interest in each other, mass-hysteria style.

I'd love to hear some more ideas on this.
_________________
Alternate Reality Gaming
http://www.unfiction.com/


PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:05 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA

SpaceBass wrote:
Wow, that's in a excellent question. I don't know if I can answer for people who don't have any prior experience with the genre anymore. It's far easier for me to get into a game now that it was for the first one I found, the Beast. Those sites patently did NOT grab me right off.


I can safely say I had a secondary lead-in for the beast. I'd been following the Cortana Letters than Bungie had put out to pump up Halo, and I enjoyed the mystery they created in the summer of 99. When the beast hit two years later and the name Doug Zartman was suddenly up for grabs, I recognized him from his Bungie days, instant in.

SpaceBass wrote:

A book is linear. It has a defined beginning and every reader starts at the same place. Even old-school adventure games started off in the same place for each player. Assuming you can write that attention-getting first few lines, you're golden. If the reader has some prior interest in attempting to get into the story whether or not they're immediately caught up (I know quite a few people who will read at least to page 50 of a book before they decide to toss it if it sucks), you can still have success if you at least build something intriguing fairly quickly.


But for the most part, these adventures are linear. If you look at Interactive Fiction for the most part, it's hard to have Story without a degree of linear motion. If you look back to Infocom text games like Zork and Planetfall, sure you could go all sorts of places, but until you put certain events in motion, you were stuck story-wise. This new Interactive Fiction is much the same way. We could only get so far until a deus ex machina revealed new information. It's still a linear environment.

SpaceBass wrote:

Is there even a way to do that with a fictional entity that can have multiple starting points, or where people can stumble in to the middle and pass right by the eye-catching bits? Perhaps this means that an ARG has to be just as intriguing throughout as a book is in that first-line hook. Or maybe in an ARG you should attempt to lead the reader as quickly as possible to a community that will help build interest in each other, mass-hysteria style.


Sure, but I think we have to think about it differently. Let's for the moment assume we have two works of Interactive Fiction: Chimera and Gryphon. Two separate ins. Two separate player groups. About four weeks into their separate arcs, Chimera and Gryphon turn out to be in the same universe, and in fact, characters in Chimera and Gryphon begin to cross over. That would be one way to handle multiple starting points.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:58 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Wolf
Decorated


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 292

Not sure what this may contribute, but here goes.

We designed thepythia.net to be a cool, interest-grabbing thing from the start. We were assuming (wrongly) that that would be the first site found after the clue was planted at the 'zine. It had a high WTF factor going for it, since the images were presented with no explanation other than maybe some hidden text here and there that was interesting but not necessarily helpful--just to keep people coming back. Steve said early on (and rightly) that this slow phase was the lift hill heading to the first drop.

We debated for quite a while about how slow was too slow. We knew that we couldn't roll everything out right away, but we also knew that waiting five days between linked pages would be too long. I think we ended up linking new pages every couple of days or so, which seemed slow enough to build suspense but still fast enough that we didn't lose peoples' interest.

We also were very aware that it had to be about the story first and foremost. Myself, I'm not a puzzle person. In fact, I may be even less puzzly than Ozy, if that's possible. I think we were aware that we'd need to hit folks hard after the last pythia.net clue or risk losing interest among the player base.

Remember the payoff for being patient through "chapter one" aka thepythia.net? What you got for waiting was...a 404 error. But that was phony, and you suddenly were racing down the first hill armed with the knowledge that somebody was dead. Then, you found out a lot of the background. The story suddenly took off and progressed almost daily.

I guess, if I do indeed have a point, it's that I think the hook for these things needs to be a combination of strong WTF factor, interesting design, and either simultaneously or soon afterward you need to hit people with a reason to start caring. Then you have your real work cut out for you--KEEP them caring. Balance story with puzzles. Balance text with graphics. Nobody wants to just read and read, and nobody just wants to look at pretty pictures.

And pulsing your audience on a daily basis to find out what's working and what isn't is ALWAYS a good idea. Sure, the story arc needs to be fixed in advance, but it also has to be flexible enough to be able to react immediately to what your main players are doing.

I'll shut up now. imbri can actually probably address this better than I, because she was the one who really stood at the center of our self-made s*itstorm and watched it swirl around her.

--Wolf

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:04 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar

Cortana wrote:
But for the most part, these adventures are linear. If you look at Interactive Fiction for the most part, it's hard to have Story without a degree of linear motion. If you look back to Infocom text games like Zork and Planetfall, sure you could go all sorts of places, but until you put certain events in motion, you were stuck story-wise. This new Interactive Fiction is much the same way. We could only get so far until a deus ex machina revealed new information. It's still a linear environment.

I agree that the unfolding of the story is a fairly linear process, but the environment is decidedly not linear. You can go anywhere and read anything inside or outside of the game and still not affect any of it. You asked about how to hook people in and what I'm trying to say is any place that is available to the reader without the story unfolding must be attention-getting.
Cortana wrote:
Sure, but I think we have to think about it differently. Let's for the moment assume we have two works of Interactive Fiction: Chimera and Gryphon. Two separate ins. Two separate player groups. About four weeks into their separate arcs, Chimera and Gryphon turn out to be in the same universe, and in fact, characters in Chimera and Gryphon begin to cross over. That would be one way to handle multiple starting points.

This sounds exactly like an idea Imbri and I talked about a few months ago. But it's more of a plan for how to unfold the story in a unique way than to hook people in the first place, isn't it?
_________________
Alternate Reality Gaming
http://www.unfiction.com/


PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:16 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA

SpaceBass wrote:

I agree that the unfolding of the story is a fairly linear process, but the environment is decidedly not linear. You can go anywhere and read anything inside or outside of the game and still not affect any of it. You asked about how to hook people in and what I'm trying to say is any place that is available to the reader without the story unfolding must be attention-getting.


Or they must be eye-catching because they contribute to the Story or to the overall effect and presence of the game. That presence is crucial. It's the difference between a site that is "in game" and one that's set up by a fanboy.
SpaceBass wrote:

This sounds exactly like an idea Imbri and I talked about a few months ago. But it's more of a plan for how to unfold the story in a unique way than to hook people in the first place, isn't it?


Sure, that's a valid point. But I think that Interactive Fiction suffers from the need to immerse its players in its world, and as such a good starting point, with a good introduction, is crucial.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:24 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA

imbri wrote:

I just cannot seperate design, interaction, and puzzles from the story and feel that if you do so, you are rather naive about the genre. Which is something that I would never associate with anyone that's been writing in this thread. So, what's this all mean? I guess I stuck around with the Beast because of the community and the puzzles. I was intrigued by the Meta aspects of it, which is why I jumped right into LJ. Am I typical? I hope not :) But I think that throwing all the eggs in the "story" basket is a mistake, unless of course, you recognize that the story is also the puzzles, the design, and the interaction.

There's more jumbled up in my head. I may spit it out later. I just will never agree with anyone that says it's ALL about the story. The story is a combination of the plot, the story telling, and the challenge. Without the design and the puzzles, it's nothing but a book.


The presence of Story as an incentive to solve the puzzles is what makes it work. Without the story, your audience is going to diminish to the people who are solely interested in the puzzles. Without the puzzles, you're right, you have a book on the web. Without the community, you can package it up and sell it at Walmart, and without the design you have the text games of the 1980s. That combined essence of The Beast, of LockJaw to a lesser extent, and search4e, etc (i'd hate to offend anyone by leaving out their favorite piece of interactive fiction, so insert that here), is threefold, you're right, Brooke.

The Design is how it looks and that attracts people. The Puzzles are what keep people banging their heads AND cooperating to make the community. But that Story becomes the driving force behind the community. You have to know what happens next. Or at least, that's how it's been for me so far.

I think that I'm not alone in my desire for good storywork.

Cortana.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:04 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA

imbri wrote:

So, I disagree with you where you say that the purpose of the design is to attract people and that the purpose of the puzzles is to create community. Certainly those are part of their role, but I think that they are essential elements of the storywork. I do not believe that they can be seperated as so many would like to do. And that that is the #1 problem faced by many ARG developers. It is not the lack of good writing or the interesting plot, it is the misutilization and underestimating the importance of puzzles and design in good story telling.

Just my two cents
Brooke


Brooke,
The aesthetics of a site, and here, I'm going to use Beast examples, since it's what I'm most thoroughly familiar with, are crucial to setting the tone, providing the ambience. A site like familiasalla-es, which feels homegrown and homespun (albeit, well homegrown and spun), lends credibility to what came from within. The appearance of Evan's site and its innerworkings at donutech were also crucial, it was a well-designed internal company site. These add to the playability of the game, you're able to suspend disbelief and work on the Story behind it.

The design of the individual sites is there to draw in the visitor and complete the fourth wall, to borrow from the drama world lexicon.

I'm also not entirely sure the main focus of the developers is to create community, either. We all have communities to which we belong, our work, our family, our friends, our town, and most likely all of us belong to several web communities. Their goal is to create a shared experience for solving puzzles, but I don't think the genre is created solely to keep things going after the game is done. I doubt that Elan and Sean and Pete and the rest of the guys expected any of this to take off the way that it has. Or if they did, they are men of remarkable foresight. I certainly didn't expect these communities to last as long as they have. We have lost many of the Beast'ers in the time since the end of the Beast, but we've added a lot of people to the community as well.

The game is about the game, and not the community that forms. The community is a necessary part of the game, puzzles that are too hard for individuals, plots that require more analysis than one person (with the exception of Fuzzy here...) can bring to the table, and other such issues bring the community to required status.

A good balance between puzzles that bring people to the table, presentation and design of the clues that bring the puzzles and the Story which drives the clues is important. But what kind of ratio are we talking? I'm not sure they're all equal partners here...

Tom

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2002 2:25 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 1 [13 Posts]  
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group