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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » ARG: Enoch of Gatewood
[INTERACTION] drsmithoftsol (Dr. Smith!)
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GoodChild
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Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 616
Location: Solitary Confinement

 		I hope I'm not starting a huge meta discussion here, but MountainGirl, If you're don't have any inside information about the formation of the story or the PM's intent, then what you posted was speculation.

Speculation: spec·u·la·tion n
1. a conclusion, theory, or opinion based on incomplete information or evidence
2. reasoning based on incomplete information or evidence

Knowledge (don't get me started with this def…having been a philosophy major, I know that this is an incomplete definition) knowl·edge n
1. general awareness or possession of information, facts, ideas, truths, or principles
2. clear awareness or explicit information, for example, of a situation or fact


While I agree that meaning can be deceiving, and language is often ineffective at conveying meaning (regardless of what the poets say), without said inside information, what you posted was speculation. No one is arguing that knowledge is the same as speculation. And no one is arguing that your own knowledge hasn't been enhanced by searching for obscurer definitions of "aevum." But claiming that your posted information has given us insight into this PM's creative process is in opposite of your claim that you have no inside information. At this point, not having any behind the curtain contact with the PM, any definition we give to "omega aevum" is just speculation to be confirmed or disconfirmed by the PM or a character. Classifying your post as something other than speculation will only confuse players who aren't following Gatewood as closely as we dedicated players.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:09 am
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RedHatty
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1428
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 		[META] Spec
Hyexistence & All,

Speculative research has been a trademark of this game since about page 9 of the original thread. From Adolph Hitler's signature to Moon phases, there has been TONS of specualtive research in this story. No one complained then, not even I, who sorted through it all to write a Story So Far thread. None of them have been tagged as SPEC before, so the pattern/habit has not been a part of this game to date.

While we were in Potentials, Spec threads were started & UF Admin asked us not to start new threads about already existing characters, so the creation of spec threads has been very limited.

While I agree that too much Spec can confuse new player, It is the loss of previous players that is more troublesome to me. There are enough issues within the playerbase, which has already sent many players running far away, that we do not need to add anymore.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:39 am
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GoodChild
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 		Meta.....Meta.....Meta.....Meta....
If you actually read my post, I wasn't complaining about speculation, I was merely clarifying the difference between speculation and knowledge, since it seemed like Mountain Girl was asserting that her post was not speculation. An assertion that something is not speculation when it clearly is speculation can confuse players.

I don't have a problem with speculation. As you can see from the post at the bottom of the previous page, I offered my own speculation about the meaning of omega aevum. My speculation was not meant to correct Mountain Girl, it was meant to add to the discussion. Just as Tipsila's speculation was not intended to correct me, but to further add to the discussion.

Some of this speculation discussion could be carried out in chat. But as you pointed out, RedHatty, there are issues within the player base, making the chat option undesirable for many players. I hardly think my comment about the difference between speculation and knowledge will cause people to walk away from this game. To me, the cause of people's loss of interest with this game comes from being reprimanded for offering opinions.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:45 pm
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AngBa
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Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 532
Location: the pit of misery, KS
to continue the META
Quote:
Speculative research has been a trademark of this game since about page 9 of the original thread.


ME: Speculative research is the bloodline of arg'ing!!!!

Pardon me if I have everything ALL WRONG, but isn't UnForums a place for players to not only POST current game developments as well as SPECULATE and INTERACT with other players as to their thoughts on how a particular game will progress?

Yes, people are going to wonder, search and find things they think relate to the game. They have EVERY RIGHT to post those thoughts and ideas to the others - what we need in order to make a logical conclusion is DOCUMENTATION! Site your sources... let the other players research and post their opinions. IS THAT SO HARD?

In the other games I have played in, there was a community of respectful players. For some reason, it seems this game has divided down the middle and turned into a game of "who can beat who" - It is ridiculous, and extremely annoying. I play ARG's because of the sense of community - the players; they work together to collectively come to a conclusion to the game (whatever it may be). This game has to be as frustrating to the PM's as it is to most of us players. The players that play ONE game to see it to completion, not the players that feel the need to be so heavily involved in every game that comes along.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:33 pm
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Mountain Girl
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Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 650

 		This is META but I'm posting it here for continuity and as an explanation to the relevance of this topic's post in question.

Good to see you Hy, it's been a while! I always appreciate an intelligent and civil debate of ideas. I also very much respect your take on the meaning of my post.

Hy wrote:
Quote:

Classifying your post as something other than speculation will only confuse players who aren't following Gatewood as closely as we dedicated players.

Perhaps I did a poor job of clarifying the spec vs (extended) knowledge explanation as to why the post remains relevant to the topic.

I agree that it's important to not confuse new players and define the relevant differences between "speculation" and research for enrichment/ gaining a broader knowledge/creating the bigger picture, etc.

Hy Wrote:
Quote:
Speculation: spec·u·la·tion n
1. a conclusion, theory, or opinion based on incomplete information or evidence
2. reasoning based on incomplete information or evidence

Knowledge (don't get me started with this def…having been a philosophy major, I know that this is an incomplete definition) knowl·edge n
1. general awareness or possession of information, facts, ideas, truths, or principles
2. clear awareness or explicit information, for example, of a situation or fact



The post concerning the word "aevum," was not a conclusion, theory, or opinion of the PM's reason for using the word within the context of the game. It served to cultivate a broader knowledge of the word through classical and modern references. The silly phrase, " Just a bit of, well waddaya know?" was meant to resolve any such assertion of speculation before it began, as was the use of a quote box.

Hy wrote:
Quote:
But claiming that your posted information has given us insight into this PM's creative process is in opposite of your claim that you have no inside information. At this point, not having any behind the curtain contact with the PM, any definition we give to "omega aevum" is just speculation to be confirmed or disconfirmed by the PM or a character.


Perhaps I did not explain sufficiently the purpose of understanding a "writer's intent." A greater understanding of any material presented does not necessarily attempt to conclude the PM's design, but merely gives players more to draw from when painting their own mental pictures of the author's vision. The more we understand, the better our self-created images of the game can be.

For example:

Omega Aevum= End Time

This straight translation paints the picture of finality, the end of the world, or apocalypse. It is perfectly relevent but not absolute.


Aevum= Our supratemporal selfhood is not within cosmic time. Our selfhood is in the aevum, which is in between cosmic time and eternity. We should not think of aevum as a place, but as a state of being and of consciousness.

Dooyeweerd speaks of the aevum as an intermediate state between eternity and cosmic time.

With the addition of a classical context (not definition), we are able to compose an enriched picture of the author's useage that contains depth; thus heightening our experience by a greater appreciation of the author's exposition.

While it is not typical to research words, meanings, and allusions within a novel to this extent, it is very much a part of this genre of storytelling and is a specific facet of gameplay. It does not serve as speculation [SPEC] to the PMs categorical meaning, intent, or objective in relation to a game or clue. It is a way to augment a cultivated perception of the story as a whole and sometimes glean further relative clues. I had a lot of fun and obtained a greater vision of the Gatewood mystery by researching the name Loki. I learned a great deal about the god Fenrir but didn't speculate the tale was about that same entity by merely posting Fenrir-relative research.

Example:
Enrichment Facet of Gameplay -Notice there is no personal thought expressed within the post.

Speculation Facet of Gameplay
Here, personal thought is added which establishes this post as speculation. ( Laughing Looking at old [SPEC] is always fun.)

Therefore, the post in question was not speculation or needed to be labeled as such. It provided details apropos of "aevum." Smile

Hy wrote:
Quote:
To me, the cause of people's loss of interest with this game comes from being reprimanded for offering opinions.


You are right. The offering of opinions, ideas, or guidance should not be met with hostility. These type of reactions made the game much less desirable for me and created an uncomfortable atmosphere for other players. It has also produced a player vs. player element rather than the appropriate collaborative effort. That is not the purpose of this board. We are here to aid, guide, encourage, exchange ideas, and work as a team. It is unproductive to get angry and become malevolent when others express alternate or conflicting opinions. Inflammatory language fuels the fires of contempt, and we all get burned.

Hy, thanks for the semantics discussion. You rock!
Rock On
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:01 pm
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