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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: MetaCortechs » MetaCortechs: Puzzles
[PUZZLE??] How to "test" what AI Man's purpose is?
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trip
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Joined: 17 Oct 2003
Posts: 128
Marauder wrote:
Flynn wrote:
An idea...

[EXTREME SPEC]
It's been noted by various people (including Beth) that our "Friend" seems to be extremely interested in how humans perceive things. Could it be that, instead of what he has been telling our e, he is actually designed to investigate human perception with a view to finding a way of fooling the human mind into believing that the world is other than it actually is? You can probably see where I'm going with this... I'm just thinking that everything that Beth has experienced could be explained in terms of having her perception altered, rather than reality being changed in any way.
[/SPEC]

Starting to ramble now, but the question is - if this is his function, how do we test it?

End of ramble.


Yes, all of the things he has done could have been accomplished by changing Beth's perceptions (what couldn't?). I believe that is what he is doing, but I disagree that he is here to investigate humans. He genuinely seems to be a "lost AI", he realizes that his creators could be dangerous to Beth, and he tries to protect her. They have also both helped each other. If he turns out to be "evil"... I'll be ed at him...


Remember that Caesar and Random witnessed one of AI man's little experiments. So we can be confident that these things occur to an actual area, not just one human's perception of the area.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:30 pm
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Flynn
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Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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 		Sorry, didn't make myself entirely clear *note to self - preview posts before posting them* I think that the above theory ^^ may have been what he was designed for. But, whatever made him lose portions of his memory may have caused his nature (programming?) to change. This could be the reason for him to a) be helpful to Beth and Texel, and b) be hunted by the monitors.

Still very spec, of course Shocked

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:30 pm
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King Mob
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 		So, if AI Man's creators intended his main purpose to be changing the perceptions of humans - does that make him a walking, talking Holodeck?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:33 pm
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Flynn
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Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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 		A possible test (inspired by Trip's post). Do the translocation tests again, but with more than one witness (I'm thinking probably Phil here). It could prove me right, but unfortunately can't prove me conclusively wrong Very Happy

If they both witness the event then either AI man is actually affecting the environment or he can control more than one persons perception of the real. On the other hand, if only one of them sees the event then he is controlling the perceptions of one individual but not the other.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure that this proves anything either way. Oh well... Shocked

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:41 pm
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Marauder
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Joined: 25 Oct 2003
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trip wrote:
Marauder wrote:
Flynn wrote:
An idea...

[EXTREME SPEC]
It's been noted by various people (including Beth) that our "Friend" seems to be extremely interested in how humans perceive things. Could it be that, instead of what he has been telling our e, he is actually designed to investigate human perception with a view to finding a way of fooling the human mind into believing that the world is other than it actually is? You can probably see where I'm going with this... I'm just thinking that everything that Beth has experienced could be explained in terms of having her perception altered, rather than reality being changed in any way.
[/SPEC]

Starting to ramble now, but the question is - if this is his function, how do we test it?

End of ramble.


Yes, all of the things he has done could have been accomplished by changing Beth's perceptions (what couldn't?). I believe that is what he is doing, but I disagree that he is here to investigate humans. He genuinely seems to be a "lost AI", he realizes that his creators could be dangerous to Beth, and he tries to protect her. They have also both helped each other. If he turns out to be "evil"... I'll be ed at him...


Remember that Caesar and Random witnessed one of AI man's little experiments. So we can be confident that these things occur to an actual area, not just one human's perception of the area.


But couldn't he just have been altering multiple people's perceptions within his range (a 12 foot square)? I'm asking, I don't remember the details of how most of the events tied to him or the ones where it seems he would have been there were witnessed.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:58 pm
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Mendax XIII
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Joined: 16 Oct 2003
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 		the perfect test
okay I have the perfect test, he is all about changing reality and perception - well how about he changes Laika into a wolf or something (I mean she had to take the dog with her for a reason).
If he can change the dog then Beth has the right to say how can you change my perception of reality.

I still this is the guy who unplugged the first of many, who shows the humans that their perception of the world is wrong and explains the war. He is the anomaly. Besides the first Neo would probably have had to unplug himself because the resistance to the machines could not exist unless the first one shows the way.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:07 pm
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King Mob
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 		Re: the perfect test
Mendax XIII wrote:

If he can change the dog then Beth has the right to say how can you change my perception of reality.


That's kind of evil: you're suggesting Beth potentially sacrifice her dog to prove a theory! Sad While the idea that AI Man is changing her perception of reality is a good one, it is still just spec. What if he's doing something completly different and ends up killing Laika? The dog's always the first to go...
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:15 pm
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joebrent
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Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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Quote:
The dog's always the first to go...


Especially if it's a black dog wearing a red uniform named Ensign Johnson who wants to live in Montana.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:21 pm
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King Mob
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Location: England
joebrent wrote:
Quote:
The dog's always the first to go...


Especially if it's a black dog wearing a red uniform named Ensign Johnson who wants to live in Montana.


Ha Ha Ha - well put! If AI Man ends up turning Laika into a McDonald's Quarter Pounder, he's gonna have one pi**ed off mama bear on his electronic hands!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:26 pm
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Mendax XIII
Boot

Joined: 16 Oct 2003
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 		evil moi?
nah I am sure AI man can turn the dog back, anyway the effects are only temporary at this stage. Twisted Evil

but seriously the question of perception has been bugging me. How do you test perception, unless Beth is given the ability by AI man to see the world as he does. Then she would understand his perception and vice versa
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:33 pm
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BrianEnigma
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 		So, this is the list I came up with of what he can and cannot do. We still do not know WHY or HOW, but we are getting a better grip on the WHAT:
Code:
Things The Strange Man CAN Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Effect climate/weather
  log.html -- he can control the wind
* Effect actual warmth
  log.html -- could turn the fire cold, items placed in fire would not burn
* Read Beth's mind
  stream.txt
* Translocate himself and a passenger (or, at least perceived translocation)
  log.html
* Reduce the coefficient of friction to zero
  log.html -- items slipping around in 12' square
* Mute Beth's sense of smell and taste
  log.html
* Communicate via electronic devices
  MetaDex files (XML on PDA, grey images on PDA, email message)
* Effect the future
  log.html -- stopped the wind 10 minutes in the future (unsure if he "queued"
  it to happen in the future or simply waited 10 minutes to perform the
  action)

Things The Strange Man CANNOT Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Effect the past
  log.html -- could not return to Oct 10
* Cause an effect longer than a temporary duration
  log.html -- tests lasted betwen 48 and 414 seconds

Now, I am not sure where this gets us, but maybe a list like this will help us focus...?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:13 pm
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chancesend
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Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 128
Location: Colorado, USA

 		Here is an email I sent to bethSPLATlittle-boxes.net late Saturday night. I'm not sure if Beth will be checking her email at all, or using potential tests sent via e-mail, so anyone is free to ask them in an instant message (which I don't use):

Quote:

1. Can he alter/distort your physical appearance? Such as, Can he turn you into a man? Can he make your limbs/body disappear? How about Laika? Can he change Laika into another breed of dog?

I noticed someone else mentioned this question also. The reason I asked it is to determine the extent of his control. Is it about perception, or changing someone's mind?

Quote:

2. You mentioned to a friend of mine that he transported you by "changing the code". Ask him if he can show you the code that he changed to accomplish his feats.

He probably won't be able to, but it doesn't hurt to ask...

Quote:

3. You mentioned that your friend made a shack become distorted, but you didn't know whether he distorted the shack, or your perception of it. A test to determine that might be: Can your friend put optical filters on what you see - can he make you see only red? blue? green? Can he rotate your vision / flip your vision / etc?

Another test to determine perception.

Quote:

4. Does he have control over sound? Can he change the sound of the forest into perhaps the sound of a city? Can he make music be heard? Can he transmit a conversation from another part of the world and allow you to hear it?

I think this one would be really interesting - it would show that he could "bend" the world to suit his needs.

Quote:

5. How about questioning his knowledge of the world? Ask him if he knows the population of the world. Ask him if he knows the size of the world. Ask him if he knows what the origin of the world is. Ask him what the year is. Basic things that are usually common knowledge. Perhaps by getting him thinking about basic facts, he will uncover lost memory sections.

This might ilicit interesting responses. If his answers differ radically from known values, then we might be able to gain valuable insight into his purpose, or perhaps the nature of the world.

Quote:

6. Can he control your movements? Such as, can he make your arm move? Can he control Laika's movements? Ask him to tell you how he is going to move someone before he does it, to verify if he has control or not.

This is testing something completely opposite to perception - if he indeed can control living things, then that'd be a real brain-buster for Beth (and us)!

Now for some spec:

Beth asked the question of "What would be the purpose of an AI that could make temporary changes to small areas?"

My theory is: An error exception handler. An error handler would need to be at the site of a system fault at the drop of a hat, and would need to be able to disrupt/bend the laws of physics in various ways in order to be able to recover from an error. The AI could be a sort of "policeman" for other AI programs, terminating any that crash. Or the AI could be a sort of pacemaker for the world, keeping everything clean and preventing catastrophic events.

One final question:

Has Beth actually TOUCHED the man, or attempted to but passed right through him? I don't think I remember reading anything one way or another...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:46 am
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aware
Greenhorn

Joined: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 5
Location: san francisco

 		Adding some things to BrianEnigma's list; I also rearranged it a bit:

Code:
Things The Strange Man CAN Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Physical effects:
* Effect climate/weather
  log.html -- he can control the wind
* Effect actual warmth
  log.html -- could turn the fire cold, items placed in fire would not burn
* Reduce the coefficient of friction to zero
  log.html -- items slipping around in 12' square
* Mute Beth's sense of smell and taste
  log.html
* Cause solid objects to become permeable (#103, "Permeable objects" - we know the AI was there because Beth met him there for the first time. Not sure whether he caused the phenomenon though.

Effects on time:
* Effect the future
  log.html -- stopped the wind 10 minutes in the future (unsure if he "queued" it to happen in the future or simply waited 10 minutes to perform the action)
* Freeze time in a small area (Beth's paranormal incident #102 "Frozen in space" mentions a stranger appearing at the site. I'm assuming that this is our friend the AI)

Communication:
* Read Beth's mind
  stream.txt
* Communicate via electronic devices
  MetaDex files (XML on PDA, grey images on PDA, email message)

Transportation:
* Translocate himself and a passenger (or, at least perceived translocation)
  log.html


Things The Strange Man CANNOT Do
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Effect the past
  log.html -- could not return to Oct 10
* Cause an effect longer than a temporary duration
  log.html -- tests lasted betwen 48 and 414 seconds
* Cause an effect larger than about 12x12 feet (friction effect, freezing time)

Things the strange man is interested in
* translocation (he got very excited when he started doing it)
* human perception, emotions, and relationships

Other random facts about him that may be of interest:
* he seems compelled or at least inclined to help people; viz.
"The presence of Miss Kinross in the vicinity of the glitch drew my attention, although I find I am unable to satisfactorily explain the causal relationship between these two events. I allowed myself to be moved to the site of the error, interrupting my diagnostics" - he interrupts repairing himself so he can help a total stranger.
and
Incident #99 Watch your step, where a boy falls into a ravine and walks away unharmed, having never hit the ground. Did AI man rescue him?


One thing I'm noticing is that the physical effects all seem to involve taking things away or stopping them (smell, taste, wind, friction, solidity, warmth). Can he create things also, or is he limited to turning things off so to speak?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:12 am
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yanka
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Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 1214
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 		I think it's telling that he refused to take Beth back to Oct. 10. If it is true that they didn't actually translocate, and he just changed either her perception of surroundings, or the actual surroundings (which, I guess, is kind of the same thing if the matrix premise is true - "reality" is nothing but perception, your brain's interpretation of the sensory input) - then he really couldn't have taken her back to Oct. 10th. She remembers what it smelled like in the office, the way the door knob felt in her hand, the shadows cast by the light - little details that he probably wouldn't be able to reproduce.

It's interesting to think HOW this could have happened at all (I don't believe in time travel) - if she wanted to go back in time, she would have to be the same her (unless she somehow just wanted to observe herself snooping around in Marcus' office - and how would that be done?). She would have had to feel exactly the same way, have the same knowledge/memory that she did at the moment, fell her heart pounding exactly the same way when Kathy found her, etc. I don't mean to be getting into wordlines or anything here, just find it interesting and somewhat satisfying that he didn't want to do that.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:33 am
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amiantos
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 23

 		roads? where we're going, we don't need roads
I questioned her about the "future" nonsense... She believes he "understands" what she means about the future and is not just queuing actions. She said she trusts him. I said she might be a bit too trusting, but I also added that it's practically impossible to test whether he is really manipulating the future or not, so it's a moot point.

edit: time travel, I think, is something that this game, firmly rooted in reality in some ways, does not want to deal with. too many paradoxes and such. heads would explode. it would be very messy.

I was very disappointed that she did not deal with memory manipulation after she said she was going to do that today. I guess maybe we got there too early for the PMs. Tomorrow will hopefully hold some answers. I practically yelled at her, or insulted her, for not giving me/us more to work with today! I'm so mean. She didn't seem fazed though, oh well. Her and I already talked about me being angry at her, though, so it should have been expected.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:48 am
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