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 Forum index » Diversions » TimeWasters
[PUZZLE TRAIL] "Torment"
Moderators: Giskard, ndemeter, ScarpeGrosse
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Paulzilla
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 229
Location: Canterbury, UK

 		No, I showed it to him though. I think I credited you. I can't remember. Definitely didn't say I found it though... That would be all the mean.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:55 pm
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Uberg33k
Entrenched


Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 905
Location: Atlanta

 		Alright then. I don't suppose either of you know Flash programming ... or are friends with someone who does know it?

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:59 pm
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Paulzilla
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 229
Location: Canterbury, UK

 		I could take a look - but I don't have a clue about Flash programming.

If its anything like C or Java I could probably make a fair stab at it, though.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:04 pm
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Uberg33k
Entrenched


Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 905
Location: Atlanta

 		Ok, here's the decompiled action script without the sound file. Here's the odd thing I don't understand. There are a ton of frames and associated scripts (69 frames and 68 scripts to be exact) to simply loop a single sound file. I'm fairly certain you don't need multiple frames or scripts to do this in flash. So all this filler ... a clue ... or nothing? Take a look and tell me what you think. It seems like all he's doing is randomly defining variables and then not operating on them. I don't get it.

Edit : bah, it looks like its nothing. I just found another example earlier in the maze where a single sound file is looped and flash does the exact same bizzare behavior.
ether.txt
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Filename  ether.txt 
Filesize  2.75KB 
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:24 pm
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drahga
Greenhorn

Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 3

 		OK, a dumb question...

When I see a "face" shaking it's head "no" at me, does that mean I went down a wrong road completely or just at that point and I should go back one step and try again?

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:43 pm
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Paulzilla
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 229
Location: Canterbury, UK

 		It means you've put in the wrong answer for the puzzle you were just on Smile
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:44 pm
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ElGameR
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 167
Location: 45° 36' N 122° 36' W

 		Regarding the Circle page --

I started under the assumption that it was a simple subsitution, but that really didn't pan out.

Heres what I got by assigning a letter to each circle (This is slightly different from what was posted earlier in the thread, and may or may not be perfectly correct -- I'll check it agian soon):

Code:

abcdefghaijzklfmnccdoe
pqcwrdstscturcscvqcifa
hqfucuhbhhkhcvxywz2rbr
bcpdbyd2m1eedqladqtrju
cgq3cwdsauttsg4cikdqcg


After playing with various substitutions, I really didn't have any luck.

Now, I have an idea...

About a week ago I wrote a small script to computer the index of coincidence for various key lengths for use solving vigenere / beaufort ciphers.

I thought I'd try plugging this block of text into it, and see if it comes up with a probably key length.

Heres the output of my little script (The first number is the possible key length, and the last is the average index of coincidence of each cipher column (.033 is for completely random text, and about .066 suggests average english).

Basically, having higher numbers at a single key length, half, and twice that key length suggests a vigenere cipher.

Spoiler (Rollover to View):

2 0.045455
3 0.043229
4 -- 0.052045
5 0.047619
6 0.042598
7 0.038095
8 -- 0.058150
9 0.038591
10 0.041818
11 -- 0.050505
12 0.048611
13 0.034493
14 0.039966
15 0.046825
16 -- 0.061905
17 -- 0.052101
18 0.039683
19 -- 0.059649
20 0.033333

I think this may be a vigenere cipher with a key length of 8.

If this is true, we may be able to take the text I gave above, split it up mod 8 (1st 9th 17th... letters in one group, 2nd 10th 18th.. in another group, etc.) and use a different simple substitution for each group of letters.

I'm sorry for the long, ranting post. Theres a very good chance I'm on the completely wrong track, but I figured I'd let you guys know of my findings / theory.

Finally, On a side note --

As a quick way to suggest that my script can produce remotely reasonably accurate key lengths; here's the output from when I ran it with one of the earlier vigenere ciphers:

2 0.043611
3 0.041229
4 0.042309
5 0.041354
6 0.039708
7 -- 0.060046
8 0.043012
9 0.039210
10 0.042581
11 0.042933
12 0.037329
13 0.041527
14 -- 0.062058
15 0.040167
16 0.049817
17 0.036140
18 0.037082
19 0.039241
20 0.046250
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:04 pm
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simokon
Boot


Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 45
Location: San Jose, CA

 		Circle cipher
After much googling, I FINALLY found a reference for the circle cipher (still can't solve it, though. Grr). Would it be too much of a spoiler to share it?

(Either way, I'll send the link via PM to anyone who wants it.)

-simokon

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:47 pm
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Uberg33k
Entrenched


Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 905
Location: Atlanta

 		I've been trying tricks like this and not getting very far. I'm still not sure how you'd work the Vigenere since there are more than 26 characters. I'm only fairly certain of two things at this point :

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
1. Its got to be some form of simple substitution. Anything more complicated would make this many orders of magnitude harder than previous puzzles, given that there are more than 26 symbols involved. You would not only have to determine a key to unlock the puzzle, but successfully be able to identify anywhere between 3 and 10 garbage symbols -or- you would have to conclusively identify the 3 extra symbols start the cipher using mod 29 instead of mod 26. How you would pull a key when you can't guarantee what set of letters/numbers/special characters you're using is beyond me.

2. Based on frequency and some other tricks, it would seem that no one symbol represents a space. Multiple symbols might be spaces, but I haven't gotten that far yet. The symbol we all have assigned to "c" seems to be "e". Frequency, digraphs, and unique neighbors confirm that. I've been trying to guess likely words in the puzzle and cribbing from here, but that only yields so much. There is only one trigraph that repeats more than once, so you can't rely on "the" to help you. If I ignore my own anaylsis and assume "c" is plaintext "t", I can actually make out the word "torment", but I'm having trouble keying the rest of the letters to anything that makes sense.


PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:51 pm
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Uberg33k
Entrenched


Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 905
Location: Atlanta

 		Re: Circle cipher
simokon wrote:
After much googling, I FINALLY found a reference for the circle cipher (still can't solve it, though. Grr). Would it be too much of a spoiler to share it?

(Either way, I'll send the link via PM to anyone who wants it.)

-simokon
I'd like to see it. I dunno if its such a big deal to post it as long as you use the spoiler tags.

Edit : Oh wow! That might be what we need to help crack this egg!

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:52 pm
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Paulzilla
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 229
Location: Canterbury, UK

 		Post it, for the love of god! Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:50 pm
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simokon
Boot


Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 45
Location: San Jose, CA

 		Re: Circle cipher
Uberg33k wrote:

Edit : Oh wow! That might be what we need to help crack this egg!


I hope so. I spent a couple of hours last night with pencil and paper and couldn't figure out how to produce any coherent text.

So how about I reason that it's not that much of a spoiler since the solution still isn't obvious? Good, I thought so, too. Here goes:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
It's on page 24 of this document: http://www.nku.edu/~christensen/section%205%20symbols.pdf


PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:56 pm
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Paulzilla
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 229
Location: Canterbury, UK

 		Firstly: How long did you spend trawling through that PDF?? *awestruck*

Secondly: I love you. Will you have my babies? Very Happy
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"Leg or no leg, I trust you about as far as I could throw Manhattan." ~~Guybrush Threepwood~~

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:00 pm
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Uberg33k
Entrenched


Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 905
Location: Atlanta

 		Re: Circle cipher
simokon wrote:
Uberg33k wrote:

Edit : Oh wow! That might be what we need to help crack this egg!


I hope so. I spent a couple of hours last night with pencil and paper and couldn't figure out how to produce any coherent text.

So how about I reason that it's not that much of a spoiler since the solution still isn't obvious? Good, I thought so, too. Here goes:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
It's on page 24 of this document: http://www.nku.edu/~christensen/section%205%20symbols.pdf
I think this answers the question of what set of letters/numbers/symbols are we working off of Very Happy

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:13 pm
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simokon
Boot


Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 45
Location: San Jose, CA
Paulzilla wrote:
Firstly: How long did you spend trawling through that PDF?? *awestruck*


Worked off an unfollowed lead from the nordinho board that it might be related to
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
The Shadow


Found the original source

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
which, incidentially, makes no mention of the "extra" symbols


and worked from there.

I'm still hunting for other references which may help with decoding it, but there doesn't seem to be much to work with.

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:32 pm
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